Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

[TheodoricFriede]

I can't find the script on my computer, nor do I want to go through hundreds of pages of rough code and dialogues, but I'm fairly certain that Javik was the original Catalyst and that his decision would depend on your conversations with him. To lessen his "all or nothing" attitude or convince him that sacrifices are inevitable in these kind of situations.

Either way, BioWare allegedly changed it because it was leaked.

Its astounding how much better that is.

[Azint]

I am not afraid to admit that the recent gameplay reveal was better than I thought it would be. As it has been said here; Andromeda still looks and sounds like Mass Effect, which I appreciate. I feel that the animations are a step below when you put it beside the competition, however, especially some of the facial expressions, or lack of.

[TTTX]

I am not afraid to admit that the recent gameplay reveal was better than I thought it would be. As it has been said here; Andromeda still looks and sounds like Mass Effect, which I appreciate. I feel that the animations are a step below when you put it beside the competition, however, especially some of the facial expressions, or lack of.

they are still fintoning the facial animation expressions.

[magnuskn]

Just watched an interview with one of the BioWare guys (their new general manager) and, man, it's astounding how bitter I still am about the endings. I love the series, I can play ME3 without a problem (with MEHEM), but I see one of the BW guys talking, I want to punch them in the throat. Not a good feeling. :-/

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[TheodoricFriede]

Yeah im 100% convinced the Turian is a lesbian only option.

Because straight and Bisexual men dont want verity. White bread boring humans (or blue humans) only for them please.

[Riptide]

Yeah im 100% convinced the Turian is a lesbian only option.

Because straight and Bisexual men dont want verity. White bread boring humans (or blue humans) only for them please.

Knowing my luck, she'll be male only.

I fucking hated I had to play maleshep in order to romance Tali. I finally get a new protagonist, I even get a turian romance option. And I just know she's going to be fucking straight.

I am so sick and fucking tired of the god damned gendergating. It Adds absolutely NOTHING to the game, all it does is exclude content for people based on what is almost entirely a fucking cosmetic choice.

I do not want to be stuck with the fucking waifu asari AGAIN as my only viable opportunity for romance. Jesus fucking Christ.

[TheodoricFriede]

Knowing my luck, she'll be male only.
.

I sense some serious contention in our future.

[Riptide]

Knowing my luck, she'll be male only.
.

I sense some serious contention in our future.

NO.

This isn't about you or me.

It's about them being fucking STUPID and checking boxes off a list. "Do we have a lesbian? Yep! Do we have a gay? Yep! Do we have a shoehorned trans? Yep!"

WHEN IT SHOULD BE ABOUT LETTING THE PLAYERS TELL THE STORY THEY FUCKING WANT.

I fucking want you to be able to romance whoever the fuck you want, Theo. I just want the same thing for myself, too.

AND THEY KEEP MAKING THAT IMPOSSIBLE.

Seriously, SOMEONE is always getting shafted when they do it this way. "Oh, you can just play the other gender!"

I'm stuck with the wrong gender in real fucking life you titless cunts. Stop fucking me over in the few refuges I have from this fucking sham I call a reality, will you!?

Seriously, this gets under my skin in a way that's just fucking unbelievable.

I just don't understand it. It's a game. Limited choices is not good game design in a game that's all ABOUT choices. DA2 did it fine and it was FINE.

[TheodoricFriede]

NO.

I'm just saying, odds of her being the bisexual option aren't great, and she will probably be the lesbian. Thats what Bioware is about now. A false, safe ''progressiveness'' that they embraced the moment it was socially acceptable to do so, rather than when a statement actually had to be made.

you are going to be the one that ends up with the better end of the deal, whether or not the deal is good in the first place.

And I, of course, will complain about it the whole time.

[Alienmorph]

It's sadly uber-easy to tell already, yes. We've got already a male and female human squadmate that are obviously gonna be the Ash and Kaidan of the situation, a bisex blue bitch, because we're not gonna get rid of those, a straight femTurian for those who want to play Captain Kirk and/or went after Tali in the old trilogy, and now we're only missing the straight male alien LI.

Add to that a couple LGBT secondary characters, like with Trayonr and Cortez in ME3, and we're ready to go.

As Rip said, unfortunately their idea of being progressive and open-minded is getting a token LI of each kind. DA:I wasn't much different either, from what I know.

[TheodoricFriede]

I love that the argument has always been "Its unrealistic", when last place I worked it turned out that 4 of the 6 people on my team were bisexual.

[TheodoricFriede]

a straight femTurian for those who want to play Captain Kirk

Seriously, there is no way.

[Riptide]

I love that the argument has always been "Its unrealistic", when last place I worked it turned out that 4 of the 6 people on my team were bisexual.

It's not even about that, man. It's about good game design.

Look at Bethesda. All their companions and marriage options? Playersexual. Does ANYONE complain about that? No.

I mean I get their companions aren't as involved as Bioware's, but the principle is exactly the fucking same. Giving players the chance to play their character, to live THEIR story.

If I want instant rejection, I can get that plenty of that in the real fucking world.

[TheodoricFriede]

Hey I'm on your side, I'm just saying why they do it.

Frankly people bisexuals and pansexuals are kind of looked down upon by gay and lesbian people anyway because you didn't "pick a side". I have heard that one more than a few times.

People love their labels. It gives a false sense of legitimacy.

[Riptide]

Hey I'm on your side, I'm just saying why they do it.

Frankly people bisexuals and pansexuals are kind of looked down upon by gay and lesbian people anyway because you didn't "pick a side". I have heard that one more than a few times.

People love their labels. It gives a false sense of legitimacy.

Absolutely and completely fucking agreed on all counts.

[Tairis]

See I much prefer characters to have actual preferences. It is part of what makes them characters instead of just 'I want this to be whatever I want it to be'. To me the player character is supposed to be the malleable one, it is 'you' after all.

DA: Inquisition had one of the more interesting mixes of romance-able characters: some were straight, some were gay, some were bi. Now if they did decide to go with the 'everyone is bi' option it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. That kind of thing only actually annoys me when it crops up with existing characters like Kaidan that, after an entire two games, suddenly shows up with an entirely new sexuality for no reason (kind of like how Ashley got an entirely new set of implants).

I think the biggest issue is when they go with the check box approach, though. 'Okay we have one of each, launch the game' is kind of dumb.

[Riptide]

I think the biggest issue is when they go with the check box approach, though. 'Okay we have one of each, launch the game' is kind of dumb.

Doing it your way guarantees that happens though. Our way allows everyone to have content.

Sera was a lesbian. Traynor was a lesbian. Cortez was gay. Dorian was gay. You say those qualities make them more interesting, but it doesn't. You take those qualities away from them, damn near nothing changes, except that more players would have access to more content. Fuck, take the gay away from Dorian, and it probably would of made him a BETTER character, since his entire character boils down to "I'm gay and my dad hates me," when we could of instead gotten something far more interesting to do with him being a Tevinter trying to make the world a better place.

[Alienmorph]

That is ALSO what infuriates me. Traynor was the pleasant exception, everyone else who wasn't a straight love interest basically had "gaaaaay!" as his/her main character trait. Kelly Chambers just wanted to fuck everything, the first time you find out that Cortez is gay is when he's listening to his boyfriend's last message and crying like a bitch, and even Kaidan loses what little presence and badassery he had in the first place and becomes almost a straight up cunt as soon as you find out he's bisex/gay.

"Bi/Homosexual" ISN'T a character trait, ffs. If they REALLY have to go for the "one token love interest for everyone!" b.s. at least make them feel like actual people, and not like poorly written stereotypes!

[Riptide]

That is ALSO what infuriates me. Traynor was the pleasant exception, everyone else who wasn't a straight love interest basically had "gaaaaay!" as his/her main character trait. Kelly Chambers just wanted to fuck everything, the first time you find out that Cortez is gay is when he's listening to his boyfriend's last message and crying like a bitch, and even Kaidan loses what little presence and badassery he had in the first place and becomes almost a straight up cunt as soon as you find out he's bisex/gay.

"Bi/Homosexual" ISN'T a character trait, ffs. If they REALLY have to go for the "one token love interest for everyone!" b.s. at least make them feel like actual people, and not like poorly written stereotypes!

It's a character trait in standard writing. But that shouldn't apply here.

It's like saying just because your squadmate getting hit by a missile in gameplay should permanently kill them is more realistic, it isn't good game design, so that doesn't happen. This is a game. This is a game with a story, with characters, about choice. Game design is more important than the story here, because it is a game, not a book. And romance, as long as they keep including them, is a gameplay element. It should be designed, as such.

[magnuskn]

I'm just saying, odds of her being the bisexual option aren't great, and she will probably be the lesbian. Thats what Bioware is about now. A false, safe ''progressiveness'' that they embraced the moment it was socially acceptable to do so, rather than when a statement actually had to be made.

Oh, so they are the Obama of gaming publishers?

Anyway, I see no Quarians. I am deeply offended by this racist exclusion, BioWare!

[Deano]

I think me might get a male Quarian to spice it up a little bit. Unless someone can already confirm that all squaddies have been revealed.

[Riptide]

I think me might get a male Quarian to spice it up a little bit. Unless someone can already confirm that all squaddies have been revealed.

Cora
Vetra
Liam
Drack
Peebee

At least one Andromeda species, most likely.

I believe it was said to expect around 6 or 7 squadmates.

[Alienmorph]

It's a character trait in standard writing. But that shouldn't apply here.

It's like saying just because your squadmate getting hit by a missile in gameplay should permanently kill them is more realistic, it isn't good game design, so that doesn't happen. This is a game. This is a game with a story, with characters, about choice. Game design is more important than the story here, because it is a game, not a book. And romance, as long as they keep including them, is a gameplay element. It should be designed, as such.

It's not a valid excuse in my opinion. Mortal Kombat managed to introduce a gay character that doesn't immediately thick the "yuuup, this is the gay token guy" box. Mortal. Fucking. Kombat. So if a mindless hyper-violent beat'em up game can do that, why can't the writers of a supposed award-winning RPG series that promotes equality and variety of gender and sexual tendencies write characters that just happen to be homo or bi-sexual, instead of having their sexuality being 90% of what they are?

And yes... Kun-Jin was still an annoying cunt, but he was an annoying cunt that simply happened to be gay and his sexuality was barely mentioned instead of being the bullet point of his whole characterization.

[TheodoricFriede]

I think me might get a male Quarian to spice it up a little bit. Unless someone can already confirm that all squaddies have been revealed.

Cora
Vetra
Liam
Drack
Peebee

At least one Andromeda species, most likely.

I believe it was said to expect around 6 or 7 squadmates.

Well dont forget the on disk, day one dlc character. Maybe he will be the quarian!

[TTTX]

Well dont forget the on disk, day one dlc character. Maybe he will be the quarian!

After Javik, it seems like the whole day 1 DLC character have been shut down, because of the ME3 hate especially after it was reveal how important he was to the plot.

So I wouldn't expect it on day 1, but a future DLC well that might happen.

[Alienmorph]

IF they do DlC squadmates I'm willing to be it's gonna be some character of one of the left behind species, just to milk over nostalgia.

Thinking more Drell than Quarian, though. Like have a Drell with Kepral syndrome that joins the Andromeda initiative because he wants to do something important in his life before dying. Like a less emo version of Thane.

[Someone With Mass]

It's not a valid excuse in my opinion. Mortal Kombat managed to introduce a gay character that doesn't immediately thick the "yuuup, this is the gay token guy" box. Mortal. Fucking. Kombat. So if a mindless hyper-violent beat'em up game can do that, why can't the writers of a supposed award-winning RPG series that promotes equality and variety of gender and sexual tendencies write characters that just happen to be homo or bi-sexual, instead of having their sexuality being 90% of what they are?

And yes... Kun-Jin was still an annoying cunt, but he was an annoying cunt that simply happened to be gay and his sexuality was barely mentioned instead of being the bullet point of his whole characterization.

But if the characters don't borderline brag about their sexual orientation, how is BioWare supposed to brag about the diversity in their writing?

[TheodoricFriede]

But if the characters don't borderline brag about their sexual orientation, how is BioWare supposed to brag about the diversity in their writing?

One of these days im going to make a definitive list of companies that have done respectfully done non traditional sexually oriented characters in games before Bioware.

[FrozenShadow]

Seems to be a lot of infighting between all the Milky Way species. You figured in a new galaxy it would be all of us vs. whatever mysteries/species we find.

I'm seeing a lot of "Outcasts" and "Anarchists", as well as other criminal/pirate/scavenger activity. Either some serious shit goes down right off the bat, or the Andromeda Initiative had a truly terrible vetting process for selecting who got to go.

Maybe the Initiative are abusing their power causing some to break away in a separatist or insurrectionist movements, or political/economic differences lead to other factions being created as tensions rose, or some event--like an ark crashing or a Kett invasion--has some people in "its every man for himself!" mode.

Or then it will be something related to Cerberus, no matter what they might have said.

As a principle, I have started to ignore everything developers have said the game will or will not be. There are too many examples of serious disparancy between what was promised and the actual game.

I can't find the script on my computer, nor do I want to go through hundreds of pages of rough code and dialogues, but I'm fairly certain that Javik was the original Catalyst and that his decision would depend on your conversations with him. To lessen his "all or nothing" attitude or convince him that sacrifices are inevitable in these kind of situations.

Either way, BioWare allegedly changed it because it was leaked.

And to completely erase that leak ending, they even made Javik as paid DLC character...well for those who didn't pre-order.

[Azint]

One of these days im going to make a definitive list of companies that have done respectfully done non traditional sexually oriented characters in games before Bioware.

Remember Kung Jin in MKX? Did you remember that he was gay, no? Because they never made it a huge issue or a foundation of his character. What about Bill in The Last of Us?

[FrozenShadow]

Well dont forget the on disk, day one dlc character. Maybe he will be the quarian!

After Javik, it seems like the whole day 1 DLC character have been shut down, because of the ME3 hate especially after it was reveal how important he was to the plot.

So I wouldn't expect it on day 1, but a future DLC well that might happen.

Well, considering how popular Tali was and still is, it's not impossible that they would add Quarian DLC, with LI character and all.

And before you say adding new LI's later on game is impossible, Bioware already did it with Liara in Shadow Broker DLC. Granted that romance was continuation from ME1. Yet, it's possible, if they just want to do it.

[TTTX]

Or then it will be something related to Cerberus, no matter what they might have said.

As a principle, I have started to ignore everything developers have said the game will or will not be. There are too many examples of serious disparancy between what was promised and the actual game.

well most false information came from Casey Hudson and he is no longer with BW.

[TheodoricFriede]

Remember Kung Jin in MKX? Did you remember that he was gay, no? Because they never made it a huge issue or a foundation of his character. What about Bill in The Last of Us?

Japanese version of Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door had a transgender partymember seeking acceptance with her family.

Chatherine, the puzzle game about cheating on your spouse, had a transgender character they were all supportive of and friends with.

Earthbound had Jeff, who is most likely gay, and his roommate, who is confirmed to be gay.

...Why is japan so ok with this?

[TheodoricFriede]

Well, considering how popular Tali was and still is, it's not impossible that they would add Quarian DLC, with LI character and all.

No offense, but I think we, as a group, really overestimate Tali's popularity. Most people dont even know shes an option. In fact shes ONLY an option in the second game.

Frankly the most popular romance option is probably Ashley, because shes the first thing with tits in the series.

[TTTX]

...Why is japan so ok with this?

you are talking about the country that invented tentacle porn.....

So yeah being gay is probably not that big a deal for them.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Remember Kung Jin in MKX? Did you remember that he was gay, no? Because they never made it a huge issue or a foundation of his character. What about Bill in The Last of Us?

Japanese version of Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door had a transgender partymember seeking acceptance with her family.

Chatherine, the puzzle game about cheating on your spouse, had a transgender character they were all supportive of and friends with.

Earthbound had Jeff, who is most likely gay, and his roommate, who is confirmed to be gay.

...Why is japan so ok with this?

Because Japan has never and will never give any fucks.

That's why it is glorious.

[Alienmorph]

Remember Kung Jin in MKX? Did you remember that he was gay, no? Because they never made it a huge issue or a foundation of his character. What about Bill in The Last of Us?

As I was saying a few posts prior.

The only people the write gay characters with "gay" as their main character traits are the ones that really don't give a damn about the fact they're just people like everyone else, and try too hard to handle them in an "interesting" way for the sake of "promoting diversity". Or gay people who wants to feel like unique snowflakes that have to be at the center of attention all the damn time because thei're different (had a professor like that in artschool. Basically every story he wrote eventually got derailed by him over-focusing on the mandatory gay character he put in it).

Meanwhile in Japan you had stuff like Sailor Moon, a series for little girls that featured a couple characters that just happened to be lesbian AND a couple. 20 f-ing years ago.

[Dragaros]

"Mass Effect: Andromeda Director Talks Destiny Inspirations, Responds to Animation Concerns; Creative director Mac Walters shares new insight into spacefaring RPG's combat, story, and more."

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Alienmorph]

Soo... if the Nexus got completed, or nigh-completed and we have Milky Way people that have been around long enough to start proper settlements.

Does that mean that the Hyperion Ark is gonna turn out to have remained in "sleep mode" even longer than 600 years after getting separated from the rest of the fleet?

[Deano]

"Mass Effect: Andromeda Director Talks Destiny Inspirations, Responds to Animation Concerns; Creative director Mac Walters shares new insight into spacefaring RPG's combat, story, and more."

This part is particularly important to me:

The trailer mentioned lots of worlds with different stories. How are you creating those? Are they procedural or are they all scripted?

We have a handful of worlds that are scripted to be hand-crafted, rich, and detailed. Each planet has its own history and backstory and they are designed specifically with unique characters, stories, challenges, and choices. Each world has its own main narrative, with a central storyline throughout, and key decisions that impact that planet for the rest of the game. All of the sidequests and adventures on a planet tie into that story, or the main game story in some way.

I was worried about a bunch of procedural quests and such, it's been far too popular recently. Mafia 3 is a good example of boring, repetitive and soulless procedural gameplay. I'm glad they are handcrafted as they should be.

[Tairis]

Doing it your way guarantees that happens though. Our way allows everyone to have content.

Sera was a lesbian. Traynor was a lesbian. Cortez was gay. Dorian was gay. You say those qualities make them more interesting, but it doesn't. You take those qualities away from them, damn near nothing changes, except that more players would have access to more content. Fuck, take the gay away from Dorian, and it probably would of made him a BETTER character, since his entire character boils down to "I'm gay and my dad hates me," when we could of instead gotten something far more interesting to do with him being a Tevinter trying to make the world a better place.

I didn't say them being straight or gay made them more interesting, I said that having preferences made them better characters, much in the same way that your characters in say, Baldur's Gate 2 had preferences about who they would even work with or your character's alignment (something that has also disappeared in modern games). It adds depth because they become more 3 dimensional individuals instead of simply templates for people to apply their desires to.

DA2 did the 'player sexual' thing and due to the way the game worked it felt like I was playing the worlds most attractive Mary Sue since literally more than 50% of the NPCs were basically coming onto my character.

You could easily just switch the variables around and have more of the NPCs be 'either character' and have the more restricted ones be more rare (IE 5 romance options, 3 are bi, 2 are straight). In a futuristic game at least it certainly makes sense that you'd have more people that were openly bisexual as we moved away from traditional religious values that keep many people from expressing those views.

[Riptide]

DA2 did the 'player sexual' thing and due to the way the game worked it felt like I was playing the worlds most attractive Mary Sue since literally more than 50% of the NPCs were basically coming onto my character.

You could easily just switch the variables around and have more of the NPCs be 'either character' and have the more restricted ones be more rare (IE 5 romance options, 3 are bi, 2 are straight). In a futuristic game at least it certainly makes sense that you'd have more people that were openly bisexual as we moved away from traditional religious values that keep many people from expressing those views.

See, that's not a gay/straight problem though. Like, Liara was throwing herself at you in the first ME, and Ash and Kaiden, too... I think that's an issue with romance in general. My favorite example of it done right is Garrus. You have a cool relationship with Garrus, and if you never hit the dialogue option to open the door for his romance, that relationship would NEVER change context. But if you want that change? It's there. Under your own agency, as the player.

I think if they did that with every character, where there's no HINT of romance unless the player character shows interest, then having everyone be player sexual works fine, because you ONLY SEE THE CONTENT YOU WANT. Then the question of their preferences isn't even a thing. I mean, if they want to give you a slightly different experience depending on your gender, I certainly don't have a problem with that.

I just think the blatant overemphasis on gendergating is counter-intuitive game design.

And I'm saying it flat out. In ME1? I didn't romance anyone. Long before I even knew Tali was returning for ME2, because she was my favorite, and for me, my Shepard only had eyes for her. If they screw me on romances this game, I'll just fucking go solo again. As much as that pisses me off (because god dammit I'm a romantic at heart.) Rip Ryder is going to take her subsequent frustrations out on Andromeda and its denizens, and it will not be a pretty picture.

[Mazder]

Are we seriously debating on why gay only characters aren't open for straight LI options just because it boils down to "I want them so it's not good game design"?

I mean seriously, you don't think them wanting a character to be gay can be their design?

Maybe it has nothing to do with their "reaction" to the player's gender/sexual orientation or not, and has more to do with them trying to make the LI themselves are their own character with their own choice? I mean seriously what these arguments all reek with is "let's just make that character that is gay, or in the very least Bi, and make it so if I, the straight player, decides for them to be Straight or not through my choices, instead of finding out they were gay the entire time.
I mean it's not about making the already available characters available to everyone because that's not how people work. Sometimes people are just gay, no matter how much time you might spend with them as their bestie, hoping to someday be something more. And considering these options are put in place so Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual people feel more included in the game in the first place the argument for it being poor game design is just utter bollocks as it's done to include more people to play the game and to feel they have something they can call their own in it.

So you don't get the Turian woman, big deal. Out there there is someone who would be terribly disenfranchised to find out that no matter what you do the character is technically Bi if you set them to be open for all players, no matter what story backflips you do to hide it, thereby erasing their closeness to the character, and possibly the game as a whole.

There is no good way to make characters be both gay and for everyone and no-one at the same time. It'd either be a crap romance or a crap story. At the end of the day it's wish fulfillment and it's ridiculous to want your own over another's and it to be canon.

[Alienmorph]

The point we're making is that it's a bad design. A character should be defined by more than his/her sexual preferences, and if you bother to make one into a romance option for one sex, there is no real reason to NOT make it avaiable for both, unless you just plan to have one token gay LI, and everyone else MUST be straight and fuck player's freedom to play their story the way they want. Really it's that simple, since we're talking of a game that's supposed to have no canon except the one the player chooses to stick to.

[Mazder]

The point we're making is that it's a bad design. A character should be defined by more than his/her sexual preferences,

Except this is a defining characteristic for a lot of people.
Removing the romance variable and them having no character doesn't make them a bad LI option/variant it makes them a bad character in general. But that does not mean you should remove their character trait. Them being gay is an equal part of that design.
Plus we're only judging on past characters that we've honestly only seen lukewarm examples at the worst.

and if you bother to make one into a romance option for one sex, there is no real reason to NOT make it avaiable for both, unless you just plan to have one token gay LI, and everyone else MUST be straight and fuck player's freedom to play their story the way they want.

Except that's not how people work.
If we stop for a moment and assume one of these characters is a real person, how disgusting is it to basically walk up to them and assume they'd be an option for us just because we're the person asking?
That is basically what we're equating to here as the example given is basically "let's make the one person we can't fuck, fuckable." Because when other characters are gay they're NOT FOR the straight character. That's the end of the line. That doesn't make them a bad LI option outright. The act of being gay and restricted to a gender isn't a bad design, even if it's the only difference between them and a Bi character.

What if you were gay, hypothetically, and there was a straight character that was just bad, but only defined by the fact they were straight?
Are they a bad LI option just because they were straight and YOU can't romance them?
Maybe, but the difference is you're not labelling the one thing that character had going for them and claiming tokenism. You're not going into the scenario trying to find out if you can make this character be gay/bi/straight by the things you do.
The player shouldn't be the decider on if a character is gay or not. They should not have that control. If a character is gay, that's it, that's their path, that's what you have to follow. If you are placing the entirety of the character into the fact they have one sex when they're clearly more than that then I am sorry but you're either not paying attention to them enough or you just don't like being restricted out of a romance option for once.