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Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

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TTTX
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » July 16th, 2020, 1:36 pm

Vol wrote:All moral leaders should be ascetics, at the very least, to ensure trust. If they live better than their followers, they might still be righteous and fair, but there'll always be a gnawing doubt.

the Rich and Powerful have always (not all of them, but a good portion of them) use that to get ahead of the rest and basically play God on earth because they think they can get away with it and let's be honest they do because when push comes to shove they stick together if they think their money and power is threaten and protect each other.

Power and money basically can show what a real person is underneath the mask they put up to act in certain ways, not much different from an abuser in relationships, as soon as they think they have power mask, comes right off.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 16th, 2020, 2:33 pm

I've learned about the Goya debate today after seeing this picture.

The Boycott Goya movement is...just dumb. Equally as dumb as the Boycott Nike one there was when they endorsed Colin Kaeperninck. Some might say "but here it's just the CEO speaking, while for Nike it was an ad campaign", but a CEO that goes on FOX to praise the president is also knowingly using politics for his business.

It might be even worse depending on what kind of brand Goya is. I don't know a thing about it since it's not sold around here - is it expensive, cheap, good, healthy or unhealthy I don't know - but it turns grocery shopping into a political move. You'll get people who might be looked at because they keep buying Goya, and then you'll see shops running out of products because some have bought tons of Goya stuff for the first time just to show support for Trump (note: I think Trump would rather have a check sent to support his campaign).

I am also almost certain that the Goya CEO knew very well what he was doing. Goya is a brand that apparently used to be mostly targeted at latino people, but now you will presumably see many white people trying it out - if they like it, they might become regular customers even after the polemic has died down and boycotters have stopped ignoring the brand altogether.

There is also a funny thing in looking at which brands are boycott-immune. Amazon is pretty much in that category despite arguments on both sides to loathe Bezos and his company - but in the end, people want things delivered at home. Canned beans though? Yeah, people can get political over that, there's probably five other brands selling them anyway so it's not depriving them from anything.

Finally, with that picture, I get the feeling Trump is supplying some very fine ammunition to whoever is the next Democrat in the White House. It will be very hard to accuse anyone of colluding with important people when you have a real picture of a president using his image as an ad to sell canned beans. I assume "Whataboutrumpism" is going to become a de facto rhetorical method to shut down any conversation.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 16th, 2020, 2:48 pm

Vol wrote:Fuck taxes and big business.

But more seriously, the cost of a legal whore in Nevada was about $1k+ when I wanted to fly out there a few years ago. Clearly far too high for the common man. However, because of the limitations on the legality, as well as the grey market, the actual average price is assuredly closer to a few days' pay.

So in my perfect vision, the legal burdens to providing service would be so low that independent contractors could undercut each other, while larger, organized guilds/companies would also compete, but at a far higher price, with a correspondingly higher degree of accommodation. Sort of like what we see with freelance artists. In reality, yeah, the monopolistic nature of our economy and retardation of our ruling class would price out the common man.


I get the feeling there would still be services provided for fees that common people can afford. Wealthy people are already using luxury escort services, those would not disappear, they would merely be rebranded - the girls (or guys) would be paid in actual, legal cash instead of...whatever payment methods are used today. Less classy sex workers would probably see an increase in their fees if regulations are in place, but they would get to rent a place for their work and would probably get more customers, since "it's forbidden" is a strong deterrent for many would-be ones (just like marijuana).

Vol wrote:All moral leaders should be ascetics, at the very least, to ensure trust. If they live better than their followers, they might still be righteous and fair, but there'll always be a gnawing doubt.


Sadly selflessness is not a personality trait that is very compatible with the methods required to access power, no matter what political system you live under. Way less efficient than "you help me, I help you".

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 16th, 2020, 4:34 pm

Sinekein wrote:Goya

The sell canned beans, and own half the country of the Philippines, and a whole lot of South America.

They are an extremely large food provider and, frankly, the only option for a lot of people outside the US. Aside from the fact that Goya was sold out when I went shopping yesterday (which does not happen, even during Covid Panic Buying. For further context people wear masks here.), boycotting Goya outside of the US would be akin to boycotting water.

Good luck. Because Goya's going to do juuuust fine no matter what they say.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 16th, 2020, 7:32 pm

Oh okay, so that's the equivalent to boycotting Nestlé around here. Thanks for the details.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 16th, 2020, 7:57 pm

What trump did violated the law.

Pretty basic stuff here. Anyone else does it, they get punished. Dumbfuck does it, he gets to skate. Trump supporters really are the most retarded group in the US for supporting this kleptocracy.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 17th, 2020, 3:16 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tej-HxU_OM4

https://news.yahoo.com/teenage-boy-give ... 47719.html

You know it's not every day I find a story floating around that genuinely almost makes me forget my commitment to nonviolence. Today is one of those days.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 18th, 2020, 1:32 am

TTTX wrote:
Power and money basically can show what a real person is underneath the mask they put up to act in certain ways, not much different from an abuser in relationships, as soon as they think they have power mask, comes right off.

Completely true. Because you have to compromise your beliefs the moment you have to wield your power. And if not, you create enemies. You create enemies by having it, using it, not using it, using it wisely, using it poorly. Everything you can do with power is wrong in some way, and how people act in the face of that is entirely telling of their core person.

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote:
You know it's not every day I find a story floating around that genuinely almost makes me forget my commitment to nonviolence. Today is one of those days.

Man, I'm far beyond non-violence at this point. Short of some unprecedented peaceful balkanization, there's going to be a lot of blood shed, no matter which ideology wins out. Sick fucks using children as experiments is just another atrocity to answer for, someday, somewhere.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby SciFlyBoy » July 19th, 2020, 9:51 am

Mobius_118 wrote:What trump did violated the law.

Pretty basic stuff here. Anyone else does it, they get punished. Dumbfuck does it, he gets to skate. Trump supporters really are the most retarded group in the US for supporting this kleptocracy.

Why does he get to skate? Is there not someone or some opposing party in the government that will accuse him and throw charges at him and prove he violated the law? It's not up to his supporters to keep him in check. Where's the balance in balance of power?
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 12:19 pm

SciFlyBoy wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:What trump did violated the law.

Pretty basic stuff here. Anyone else does it, they get punished. Dumbfuck does it, he gets to skate. Trump supporters really are the most retarded group in the US for supporting this kleptocracy.

Why does he get to skate? Is there not someone or some opposing party in the government that will accuse him and throw charges at him and prove he violated the law? It's not up to his supporters to keep him in check. Where's the balance in balance of power?


There is no balance of power. Trump and his supporters ensured that. He's stacked the other branches of government with his buddies who directly benefit from his policies.

The vast majority of the people suffer for it all.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 19th, 2020, 8:16 pm

SciFlyBoy wrote:Why does he get to skate?

Because by virtue of being president and also a human, the president will regularly break the law.

Barack Obama promoted his favorite sports team 2 weeks into his presidency. Sports teams are a product. He also 'broke the law'. But it doesn't really matter as, to a certain extent, the president is legally immune to certain laws/lawsuits. The point of this is so that the leader of the free world isn't constantly being needled by lawsuits that are ultimately pointless.

It has been this way since the late 1800s.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 8:43 pm

In response to that...Not officially. President Obama did not use his office to promote any sports team, product, or service. Trump has. Trump violated the actual law.

It wasn't hard to figure out and find zero official White House endorsements from President Obama. Trump, however, is a shameless corporate whore.

In other news, AG Barr and trump have been using Federal law enforcement in unmarked vans as secret police in Portland Oregon. Something that 2nd Amendment suckers have been saying they'd fight against if it ever happened. Well, it happened. Where's the outrage?

Oh, right. Since it's protesters getting black-bagged, the right wingers, the libertarians, the "Don't tread on me" folks are silent. Remember when I said this would happen and I was called crazy? Good times...
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 19th, 2020, 8:51 pm

"Protestors"

People staging a protest don't loot and burn shit Mobius. They have the right to peaceably assemble. They second they start breaking things or burning things they should be stopped.

That the local government did nothing to stop it shows how thoroughly compromised so many of these cities are.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 8:57 pm

Still secret police, son. Still predicted, still happening.

The videos show peaceful protesters getting grabbed, not the right wing rioters taking advantage of the cops beating peaceful protesters.

And like I've pointed out before, you're quite the bootlicker for a libertarian. All for a secret police as long as it isn't you getting bagged.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 19th, 2020, 9:03 pm

Oh shut the fuck up with that Mobius.

You genuinely believe it's a bunch of evil righties rioting and looting... in this deep deep blue city in this deep deep blue state.

The fact that these have pretty much only been happening in Democratic cities MUST mean there's an evil righty conspiracy... not Communists doing what they ALWAYS DO.

I'm sure it was also a bunch of evil secret nationalists that murdered people in that laughingstock Chop. Yep. No lefty violence. No Commie looting. Nope see all negative things are always and must always be from your opposition.

You're nuts.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 19th, 2020, 9:04 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:In other news, AG Barr and trump have been using Federal law enforcement in unmarked vans as secret police in Portland Oregon. Something that 2nd Amendment suckers have been saying they'd fight against if it ever happened. Well, it happened. Where's the outrage?

Oh, right. Since it's protesters getting black-bagged, the right wingers, the libertarians, the "Don't tread on me" folks are silent. Remember when I said this would happen and I was called crazy? Good times...

Oh, there's a meme for this.

Image

That's why. When freedom and fairness and NAPs fail, why would the people who would be the specific targets for future oppression speak up for the people who loathe them and want to destroy their culture/lives? Those principles only apply when there's an external force (national unity) binding them together.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 9:13 pm

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote:Oh shut the fuck up with that Mobius.

You genuinely believe it's a bunch of evil righties rioting and looting... in this deep deep blue city in this deep deep blue state.

The fact that these have pretty much only been happening in Democratic cities MUST mean there's an evil righty conspiracy... not Communists doing what they ALWAYS DO.


Shut the fuck up with that Communist shit. You sound like a dumbfuck.

Fuck off with your bootlickery. You're not a Libertarian, you're a fucking fraud. You're talking like some incel piece of shit who hides in his moms basement at 40 blaming every problem on minorities and liberals. No wonder trump appeals to you, he gives you a conduit for your shitty personality.

Is it any wonder that the overwhelming majority of the looters were young white fools from the suburbs? Or about how riots are the voice of the unheard, and that this was an inevitability considering the systemic racism inherent in the US government?

Vol wrote:
That's why. When freedom and fairness and NAPs fail, why would the people who would be the specific targets for future oppression speak up for the people who loathe them and want to destroy their culture/lives? Those principles only apply when there's an external force (national unity) binding them together.


Libertarians and the like were always selfish losers. They are nothing but failed conservatives.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 19th, 2020, 9:24 pm

Yes... middle class white kids from the suburbs. Just the kind of idiots that get sucked in by communism. Or have you taken a look at your average college campus lately?

These blighted far left cities have a serious problem with violence. Either as an outgrowth of gang culture stupidity like Chicago or because a bunch of mealy mouthed soy boys decided that they were gonna start the revolution by breaking a window.

These pathetic lackwits deserved to be crushed.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 9:25 pm

Whatever you say, soyboy.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 19th, 2020, 9:39 pm

Oh such biting wit. Truly I am slain.

Enjoy those cities Mobius. You deserve them.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 10:43 pm

Ok, fraud.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » July 19th, 2020, 10:53 pm

The laziness of your insults is matched only by the weakness of your ideology.

Portland had weeks to restore order, their local government failed. You sow the wind you reap the whirlwind.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 19th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Nah dude. You're a fraud. That's not an insult, that's a fact.

You want small government, and you're praising trump's gestapo for kidnapping peaceful protesters through violent means. Some libertarian you are.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 20th, 2020, 1:38 am

A federal judge's son was shot dead, husband wounded, in an apparent assassination attempt. Assassin posed as a FedEx delivery man. She was recently assigned some case about Epstein, but no indication it's related.

Think the last time judges were targeted for violence was the 60's, according to friends, and those were the violent sort of troubles.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 20th, 2020, 8:32 am

From what I read, she was investigating a claim made by Deutsche Bank investors that the bank failed to warn them about the unsavory people who were in partnership with it - the investors did not want their reputations associated with them, hence the lawsuit. Epstein is among those people but he is only one of many, so while it might be related (he was the most prominent), it might also have to do with the many other crooks or criminals that associated with that bank.

Also, it goes without saying but she is a judge so it is possible she made enemies during her career. I hope it is just an isolated event, because judges being assassinated tend to be stories that remain on the front pages for a very long time (I think Italy had many of them, including Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino, and those stories are still talked about today).

One thing that has to be said is that I am not sure killing a judge is the smart move if you want for justice to look the other way. On the contrary, that is the kind of event that makes lawyers double down on the investigations.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby SciFlyBoy » July 20th, 2020, 9:23 pm

Apparently the guy who killed her son was a lawyer involved with a case with the judge some years ago and he's an "Anti-feminist" who defends men's rights.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/19/us/feder ... index.html
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 21st, 2020, 12:56 am

I'm hearing conflicting reports that the assassin killed himself, that he was someone else, that another associate of Epstein was found hung, so it's all a mess right now. But at the very least, someone tried to assassinate a federal judge, which is the noteworthy part of all this.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » July 22nd, 2020, 4:50 am

the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » July 23rd, 2020, 6:36 pm

Moving this here, where it belongs.

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote:
No.

It's a sad thing that those people died but I just don't care about this corona nonsense anymore. it's too wide spread for locking shit down to work at this point. Better to get it over with and take what pain it has left to dish out.

I'm sorry if that sounds callous but humanity has dealt with pandemics for as long as we've been a species. There's nothing special about this one.

It's only so widespread because of failures to contain by people who did not want to do the necessary measures to contain it.
Those that chose to mask up, use lockdowns and adequate cleanliness are coming out just fine.
If there is a Second Wave it is going to come from the USA, Brazil or India.

There is absolutely something special about this one, the high infectivity rating. It's the most infectious virus to date. That alone is special.

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote:
Sinekein wrote:Yes there is. Now we know how pandemics work and how to avoid unnecessary deaths.

If you feel like wearing a mask and washing your hands infringes on your personal freedoms - because that is what "giving a shit" means - then that just says a lot about yourself.


I already wash my hands and I'm a hermit who actively avoids troubling other people. But I'm not going to be *ordered* to do something by anyone.

Least of all a hag lackwit of a governor.

So basically it's back to "I don't like being told what to do" like a petulant child.
The scientific consensus says wear a mask. Pretty much every nation that has almost defeated this virus wears masks. Now because it's you that's being told to do it somehow it's wrong/offensive?

You say you don't want to trouble others yet you're actively going to keep going without taking the necessary precautions that WILL trouble others.
It's not about you. It's never been about you and it never will be about you. It's about everybody. If you care for your small community then do the thing that will most likely help your community during a pandemic and take all precautions to stop the spread of the virus. It's really that simple.
Ignore if it's the fucking govenor saying it. Pay attention to all the nations that have beaten the virus in a much, much, much better state than your nation has.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 23rd, 2020, 6:50 pm

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote:I already wash my hands and I'm a hermit who actively avoids troubling other people. But I'm not going to be *ordered* to do something by anyone.


The horror. Being ordered to behave decently to avoid spreading a disease. US confirmed communist dystopia.

Mazder wrote:a petulant child.


Well. Duh.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » July 23rd, 2020, 6:51 pm

Mazder wrote:So basically it's back to "I don't like being told what to do" like a petulant child.
The scientific consensus says wear a mask. Pretty much every nation that has almost defeated this virus wears masks. Now because it's you that's being told to do it somehow it's wrong/offensive?

Even Trump has said it's time to make masks mandatory, because people are too dumb to understand that keep distance to other people and other things is to hard for some to understand.

and if he starting to say it well then things are really bad.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 23rd, 2020, 7:20 pm

I will never understand the mask thing.

Day damned one* when they said "Yo, this keeps you from getting sick" I put the mask on. I dont care about grandma, or the orphans, or the aids patients. They can all go fuck themselves.

I am wearing a mask for the purely selfish reason that even minor flu like symptoms still fucking suck and I dont want to do that.


*I would like to point out that early on the super lefty scientist crowd actively said "Don't wear a mask, it doesn't do anything." Because the fucking messaging on this virus has been god awful on ALL SIDES of the political spectrum. So I am referring to when those people got their heads out of their collective asses.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 23rd, 2020, 7:28 pm

Scientists sucked at delivering a clear message. At the same time, they were saying "the population needs to wear masks" and "normal masks are useless for nurses and doctors, they need better ones" - because a normal person will probably get by with a mask that stops 99% of the virus due to not being exposed to it much, but a nurse or a doc in a Covid service will get sick with the same protection rate.

So some people logically got that normal masks weren't useful.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 23rd, 2020, 7:59 pm

Sinekein wrote:
So some people logically got that normal masks weren't useful.

I assure you. This is some revisionist history bullshit.

Because it was a near CONSTANT refrain of "masks dont do anything, you are taking them away from the people who need them."

My memory is longer than a few weeks.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 23rd, 2020, 8:40 pm

I don't know, over here there always was the distinction between HSP2 masks for medical workers and normal masks for everyone, but it was not clearly conveyed which one was for whom.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 23rd, 2020, 10:25 pm

There was a distinction being made, if you looked, but that itself is the damnation of the press. If you know people only pay attention to the headlines, or the video equivalent, then the onus is to make that very accurate. But yeah, at the very beginning, everyone was saying not to worry, don't ban travel from China, go down to Chinatown and hug people for New Years, etc. Then there was the reversal, but the intent seemed to be more to freak people out into wearing any mask than a specifically useful one, and that's on them if the false confidence caused the current situation (it did).

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » July 24th, 2020, 4:24 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:
Sinekein wrote:
So some people logically got that normal masks weren't useful.

I assure you. This is some revisionist history bullshit.

Because it was a near CONSTANT refrain of "masks dont do anything, you are taking them away from the people who need them."

My memory is longer than a few weeks.

Maybe that was a USA thing because over here there was definitely the whole "we medical staff need the proper masks so please stop using them" and the public misreading that as "masks don't do anything".

Hell, there are still some who are misreading that.

Vol wrote:There was a distinction being made, if you looked, but that itself is the damnation of the press. If you know people only pay attention to the headlines, or the video equivalent, then the onus is to make that very accurate. But yeah, at the very beginning, everyone was saying not to worry, don't ban travel from China, go down to Chinatown and hug people for New Years, etc. Then there was the reversal, but the intent seemed to be more to freak people out into wearing any mask than a specifically useful one, and that's on them if the false confidence caused the current situation (it did).

Because for some reason we believed China wasn't a complete mess of incompetence and could contain it to Wuhan.

Oh how naive we ARE.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby FrozenShadow » July 24th, 2020, 2:00 pm

Well, seems like Trump and co are following the very old advice. When you have trouble at home, start a war or trouble on abroad.

The last time the situation in US was this messy, was during Vietnam war years. Only exception is that during that time, it was Vietnam War that causes issues at home. But now it's Trump and co causing same issues.

And the worst part in all of this is that sadly Trump might actually win the incoming election again. But again, he won't win because he is better candidate. If he wins, it's because Democrats has yet again chosen horrible opponents for him. Then again, I don't think it matters all that much. Right now US is totally divided, if not outright broken. And you can't fix it, as long as US continues with 2 party system. There needs to be 3rd party, so that democrats and republican are forced to work together, not literally fighting against each others like they do right now. In recent years, it has mattered, if democrats or republicans has won elections, America as a whole has lost every time.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 24th, 2020, 6:25 pm

It indeed looks like the Trump campaign has finally found a direction, it probably has something to do with him changing campaign directors - I think before it was a guy that was here in 2016 already, but an election campaign and a reelection campaign are two different things and you can't very much blame everything on the opposition when you're the one in charge and the Senate is on your side.

Now it is obvious Trump is going to be all-in on the law and order card, at the moment he looks much more like your usual conservative candidate. The question is how many indecisive voters it will sway to his side. He has spent four years polarizing the public opinion in a "with us or against us" mentality, so it looks a bit late to try and bridge the gap towards moderates, but if there is enough chaos it might work.

However, Biden is a moderate Democrat. And when he was VP there never was nearly as much chaos as there is right now, so he will have rather handy counterarguments if he starts being attacked on that front.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » July 24th, 2020, 7:11 pm

So....what the hell is even going on in Portland?
Last I heard the whole business at the Courthouse was deemed by trhe Federal defenders there an "Unlawful Assembly".

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 24th, 2020, 7:42 pm

Mazder wrote:Because for some reason we believed China wasn't a complete mess of incompetence and could contain it to Wuhan.

Oh how naive we ARE.

China has a very effective propaganda network in the west, as we've seen. That, plus the WHO being in their pocket, and the west's ridiculously naive ways, is why it spread. Japan and South Korea know better than to trust internationalists, and thus, combined with their more collectivist societies, were able to snuff it out easily.

FrozenShadow wrote:And the worst part in all of this is that sadly Trump might actually win the incoming election again. But again, he won't win because he is better candidate. If he wins, it's because Democrats has yet again chosen horrible opponents for him. Then again, I don't think it matters all that much. Right now US is totally divided, if not outright broken. And you can't fix it, as long as US continues with 2 party system. There needs to be 3rd party, so that democrats and republican are forced to work together, not literally fighting against each others like they do right now. In recent years, it has mattered, if democrats or republicans has won elections, America as a whole has lost every time.

Well, yeah. The consequences of post-WW2 globalism ideology are beginning to break down the nation. Western liberalism cannot coexist with it. So either we transition into a secular humanist authoritarian state, where the citizen is an economic unit with very limited autonomy but plenty of luxury, we balkanize, which is unpleasant if we look at the Balkans, or some variation thereof.

But the principles of individuality, freedom of speech, faith, social and economic mobility, it's directly antithetical to the country the Democrats, and most of the GOP, are trying to build. Trump was the first real public rebuke of that, but he's only President. A bunch of black bloc LARPers and angry blacks are able to force more actual governmental change, by violence and destruction, than a fucking peaceful transition of power has done in decades.

Our government as is _is_ the third party. Mutually incompatible beliefs, working together, to get little and nothing done, until the ghouls in the press put enough pressure on them to act hastily. Or the courts legislate from the bench. That's compromise.

Mazder wrote:So....what the hell is even going on in Portland?
Last I heard the whole business at the Courthouse was deemed by trhe Federal defenders there an "Unlawful Assembly".

The protesters have been going on for 50+ days now. They went after federal property, ripping down barricades and some sort of arson. Feds deployed DHS, since Portland is within 100 miles of the border and their jurisdiction. Since every cause adores a martyr, this has inflamed tensions.

Sinekein wrote:It indeed looks like the Trump campaign has finally found a direction, it probably has something to do with him changing campaign directors - I think before it was a guy that was here in 2016 already, but an election campaign and a reelection campaign are two different things and you can't very much blame everything on the opposition when you're the one in charge and the Senate is on your side.

Now it is obvious Trump is going to be all-in on the law and order card, at the moment he looks much more like your usual conservative candidate. The question is how many indecisive voters it will sway to his side. He has spent four years polarizing the public opinion in a "with us or against us" mentality, so it looks a bit late to try and bridge the gap towards moderates, but if there is enough chaos it might work.

However, Biden is a moderate Democrat. And when he was VP there never was nearly as much chaos as there is right now, so he will have rather handy counterarguments if he starts being attacked on that front.

Congress is bicameral and the executive is purposefully muzzled by the other two branches, as we fought a war to get rid of kings. Wielding his power has been challenged and blocked at every turn, outside the narrow range of unequivocal authority, and even then. But yes, he should have been far more aggressive with action, because the reaction would have been identical, but more progress would have been made.

Hard to say, because I imagine the Shy Tory effect is very strong right now, but we'll get a clearer picture soon.

Biden also swore to pick a brown female for his VP, and it seems unlikely he would be physically capable of serving a full term. Which is why his campaign was smart to hide him away while Trump has to deal with corona and riots, nothing Biden could say or do would help him more than keeping his mouth shut.

He's a neoliberal, clearly, but with the authoritarian left gaining massive power in a very short period of time, who knows what he'd do in practice. I mean, swearing to put someone in the Oval Office once you step down solely on the basis of their essential traits is the opposite of liberalism. And if wins on the old status quo + "brown women have innate positive traits that white men and women don't," we're in uncharted waters. Where do you go from that?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 24th, 2020, 7:55 pm

FrozenShadow wrote:And the worst part in all of this is that sadly Trump might actually win the incoming election again.

Donald Trump is probably not winning re-election. But it has nothing to do with anything he did, and everything to do with the democrats being the luckiest political party on the planet and having the world get struck with a economy crushing plague less than a year before a presidential election.

Everything I have read and discussed with my financial advisor indicates that the economy is not recovering, and in fact will probably crash again, before the election. Trumps major selling point for re-election was the skyrocketing economy that started the day he was elected, and didn't stop till a global pandemic.

Even if it remains as is, no amount of arguing that the DOW is still 7,000 points higher than it was at any point in Obama's terms will get through the overwhelming wave of news coverage about how the economy is down, and it's all Donald Trumps fault for creating the Virus himself in his MAGA hat factories.

There's still a ways to go before votes are cast, but I think that China killed Trumps presidency, and they weren't even trying.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 25th, 2020, 6:01 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:Even if it remains as is, no amount of arguing that the DOW is still 7,000 points higher than it was at any point in Obama's terms


Honest question here because I know little about macroeconomics: why is Trump's mandate perceived as a financial triumph for raising the DOW from 19000 to 26000, but Obama's mandate who got it from 8000 to 19000 in 8 years is not?

Is it because the Obama mandates were seen as the economy recovering from 2008 and not really people getting wealthier?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » July 25th, 2020, 10:07 am

Sinekein wrote:
Is it because the Obama mandates were seen as the economy recovering from 2008 and not really people getting wealthier?

It is pretty much that exactly.

Look I am not blind to the politics that go into these trains of thoughts. But as you said, the Obama economy was a recovery that turned into a steady climb. The Trump economy SKYROCKETED from day one.

This isn't even necessarily even due to things he did. He hadn't done anything yet when it started. Its just that he was perceived as an extremely business friendly president from day one. He has since generally been extremely supportive of business.

Some of that comes with trade offs. I'm not exactly in favor of the rolling back of environmental laws. But its those decisions, no matter how cruel, that make the Trump economy different from the Obama one.

Now, if you want to talk about whether or not it was sustainable? Thats a whole other topic. I was frequently given warning looooong before covid that a major drop was coming. My entire portfolio was based around remaining cash heavy waiting for it. So who really is to say? It is impossible to truly understand how good or bad a president was for the economy until years upon years after their term.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 25th, 2020, 6:58 pm

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status ... 4560559104

FdI is the real hardcore nationalist party, right? That seems very high, even for Italy.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » July 25th, 2020, 7:28 pm

Vol wrote:https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1287005134560559104
FdI is the real hardcore nationalist party, right? That seems very high, even for Italy.


Breaking the "no more politics thread for me" rule for a moment.

Yes, FdI ("Fratelli d'Italia) is the extreme-right/nationalist party. For a while the League was the big powerhouse of the Right, but good old idiot Matteo Salvini keeps shitting the bed, while the current more left-leaning/liberal government keeps... you know... actually getting shit done, so he's been slowly but steadily losing consents.

Unfortunately he has been enabling every nationalist, bigot and disinformed moron for years, so now thei're being as vocal as thei've ever been since WWII, and while Salvini loses support, his counterpart Giorga Meloni, the leader of FdI now gets to collect all the phanatics under her flag. Unfortunately while Salvini is just a conman, and is he's not even really a right-winger, Meloni and FdI are truly extreme right, so their rise in popularity is some very bad news indeed...

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 28th, 2020, 12:41 am

Well, worst case scenario, you'll be fine at least. And you'll have (mandated) national purpose!

Read a Nate Silver analysis of the latest poll aggregates. He noted that Biden's lead is almost entirely precipitated on the white vote not breaking for Trump. Which is fascinating, since that would imply the riot/protests and the systemic anti-white policy changes has shored up their support. You would think people, as blocs, when faced with every other identity group formalizing and gaining power, would in turn coalesce into their own. But here, we see the opposite.

Though how much is social pressure to lie to pollsters, I cannot say, but in aggregate, that's about how the electorate actually feels.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » July 28th, 2020, 6:15 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:It is pretty much that exactly.

Look I am not blind to the politics that go into these trains of thoughts. But as you said, the Obama economy was a recovery that turned into a steady climb. The Trump economy SKYROCKETED from day one.

This isn't even necessarily even due to things he did. He hadn't done anything yet when it started. Its just that he was perceived as an extremely business friendly president from day one. He has since generally been extremely supportive of business.


Thanks for the details.

Vol wrote:Read a Nate Silver analysis of the latest poll aggregates. He noted that Biden's lead is almost entirely precipitated on the white vote not breaking for Trump. Which is fascinating, since that would imply the riot/protests and the systemic anti-white policy changes has shored up their support. You would think people, as blocs, when faced with every other identity group formalizing and gaining power, would in turn coalesce into their own. But here, we see the opposite.


Might have to do with the protests losing part of their racial identity. Trump decided to send the national guard in Portland, which as far as I know is not famous for being very ghetto (apparently it's the world capital of hipsters). So while it fits into his new L&O narrative, it is unlikely to make the riots even more about race, on the contrary.

Had he sent the NG to Detroit or Chicago first, the message would have been different for the electorate.

Also, again, Biden is not really threatening to white voters. He was mostly known as the white guy who worked with a black president, so he is not going to be racially divisive (and he's popular among black people too for that reason). Trump is probably waiting now for his ticket announcement to see how he could attack him.

And that being said, I think the worst pick for the Trump campaign would probably be Tammy Duckworth. I get the feeling that Trump would be absolutely unable to resist mocking her for her disability, but I doubt all of his fans would be 100% on board with making fun of a U.S. Army veteran who lost her legs on active combat duty. On the other hand, I can picture that some idio... people on the left would start saying that she is not clearly enough a WOC, so the threat might come from there more than the Trump campaign.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » July 28th, 2020, 8:18 pm

The militant force in Portland is not NG, it's a mercenary company. Mercenaries are still bound by the rules of warfare, and they're violating the fuck out of them.

And trump's economy didn't skyrocket from day one. He deregulated everything resulting in company profits, and the workers saw nothing. He was also still using President Obama's economic policy for the majority of 2017. After that it was all him and it was not as good as the market shows.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » July 29th, 2020, 1:29 am

Sinekein wrote:
Might have to do with the protests losing part of their racial identity. Trump decided to send the national guard in Portland, which as far as I know is not famous for being very ghetto (apparently it's the world capital of hipsters). So while it fits into his new L&O narrative, it is unlikely to make the riots even more about race, on the contrary.

Had he sent the NG to Detroit or Chicago first, the message would have been different for the electorate.

Also, again, Biden is not really threatening to white voters. He was mostly known as the white guy who worked with a black president, so he is not going to be racially divisive (and he's popular among black people too for that reason). Trump is probably waiting now for his ticket announcement to see how he could attack him.

And that being said, I think the worst pick for the Trump campaign would probably be Tammy Duckworth. I get the feeling that Trump would be absolutely unable to resist mocking her for her disability, but I doubt all of his fans would be 100% on board with making fun of a U.S. Army veteran who lost her legs on active combat duty. On the other hand, I can picture that some idio... people on the left would start saying that she is not clearly enough a WOC, so the threat might come from there more than the Trump campaign.

Yeah, Portland and Seattle, and to a degree Austin. San Francisco and NYC were the cultural hubs for bohemians, but the whims of international capitalism plus the recession priced out the early Millennials.

Might be Biden's lack of presence too, you're right. There is no good way to handle a riot or viral outbreak in terms of optics. Less than a hundred days left tho, need to start ginning up excitement. Hate isn't quite as effective.

Possibly. He's shown himself nearly unable to respond to a jab, no matter the target. Though he's shown restraint, like with that Muslim family with the son who died in the military. Still went at them, but gently.

---

What's been edifying about this wave of companies and government pledging to mandate diversity in their ranks, at all levels, is how easy it was to affect that change. Very little talk about competence or limited talent pools to draw from, only essentialism and numbers, because diversity is good and that's axiomatic. I vehemently disagree, but that's irrelevant. What's relevant is that we think of big business as soulless, money grubbing leech-men in suits. Anything for a dollar. No scruples. Any show of care is pandering at best. They all use slave labor, psychology, and condensed evil, blah blah blah cartoon tropes. Obviously the truth is nuanced, and sociopaths are rare outside of the highest corporate levels of international companies.

But with this relatively light push from low level cultural agitators, the people we assume control us, have seemingly eagerly committed to making their employees worse. Because if we reject essentialism, funnily enough, and assume all people are roughly capable of the same thing, on the macro level, then you still need a great deal of time and effort to bring up people to replace the ones you're actively getting rid of. For no actual benefit beyond posturing, which has been shown repeatedly to result in either apathy or an active loss in revenue. And yet they're all doing it, and that's fascinating. They can't be moral agents for so many reasons, and we'd accepted that as rational people, but that seems to be their motivations, barring some convoluted scheme to make more money by hiring from a racial supply of workers that's already exponentially outstripped by demand.

Suppose that's heartening, if that's your ideology. You can affect this massive, systemic change for relatively nothing in costs.


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