Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

[Mazder]

So basically not Mass Effect.

What invalidates it as Mass Effect?

Mainly because that exact story was done in it's lore and waved over as it basically makes things pretty pointless on a Galactic scale.
Just taking the Turian Heirarchy as an example, essentially thousands of years before Humans even stepped onto the scene the Turians already did the whole "small kingdoms" thing. That resulted in the Heirarchy we see today. They're so regimentally structured because of the Turian clans uniting after the Unification War.
So to take them and basically revert them to what they were before they became the very thing we identify them as is kind of pointless.
It turns them into the role the Krogan filled pre-ME3.

Speaking of the Krogan, the whole point of their story in ME3 was to unify. But now they'd go back to being post-Apocalyptic Clan warfare again...why?
Why erase that?

Also with humans being weaker.
Welcome to pre-ME1 humanity.
Post ME1 was our time to grow because of our doctrinal difference, but now we're to become a shred because we should be linked to Earth....again? It's the same problem as ME3. Why have us be caring about this dirtball? Why should we suffer on it when if it was flooded with Eezo we would very much leave it and go set up elsewhere. We have plenty of planets to choose from, hell, even Freedom's Progress, the first planet we ever see in the games is a suitable candidate.
Why take us as a species on to a path that we'd never actually do to nerf us?

In fact isn't that kind of erasing the whole point of the Mass Effect Trilogy's story of coming together to succeed against insurmountable odds?
That working together is the best way to help us through strife, even when the only danger is living with each other?
I mean, the whole "Salarians, Turians and Krogan accepting to work together" alliance thing just would not happen if the idea was to have it all return to clans and infighting.

Taking everything back to Clan Warfare bullshit just seems like a colossal step backwards to try and step around the fact it was already done.
Even if it's inter-species clans it just doesn't seem like something that would make a whole lot of sense in the Mass Effect Universe after a period of advocating for co-operation.

It just doesn't sound like it'd be successful past the small pockets of pirate space or conflict border zones.

I mean, it'd be like if post WW2 the UK, France, USA, Belgium, and Italy all went back to doing the Europe-wars of the 18th century.
It just doesn't make sense.

[Raga]

I feel like I'm kinda over Mass Effect at this point. If some good thing happens in this universe I'll pick it up again, but the itch is pretty much gone. One thing that would regenerate the itch is something I've wanted for 10 years, which I'm almost certain they would never do. Mass Effect: Origins. For Mass Effect: Origins, I don't really care when it's set so long as it's in the Milky Way.

If that's not the format and we get some Shepard/Ryder protagonist instead, I'd still be willing to look at it but I have next to no interest in another game set in Andromeda. One of the things I liked about ME was that it made a half-assed attempt to use actual astronomy and used actual stars and such. I feel like that grounded it in a way that Andromeda wasn't. Andromeda went full on space opera which is just not what I want from ME.

I also wouldn't really want a post-apocalyptic game unless some actual big metropolises and civilizations have been built back up from the apocalypse. Simply because "we are a bunch of tribes in the rubble" is both aesthetically and thematically really boring. I've never much liked post-apocalypse as a genre. The number I've read/seen/played that I really deeply enjoyed I can count on one hand.

[Mazder]

Mass Effect: Origins. For Mass Effect: Origins, I don't really care when it's set so long as it's in the Milky Way.

I've wanted this for years too.
Pick a race, have a few diverging stories that branch and interlink, maybe have them all follow one similar path but have completely different perspectives and a new playthrough gives new info in only that story can and have it all come together in the end but not be reliant on one story over the other. And to not just become bland.

I would prefer now that the story is not a prequel at least because I am bored of prequels now, or the idea of prequels.
Like, I don't need to see the First Contact War.
I don't need to see the Krogan Rebellions.
I don't need to see the Morning War.
I don't need to see the Prothean era.

Those prospects all bore me.

Hell even a story moving alongside the Trilogy on a smaller scale kinda irks me as it'd just be a story of "Meanwhile back at the Plot".

[Sinekein]

If enough time passes I guess they could just pick one ending and run with it, either blue, red or purple because with a large enough timeskip blue and red are not that much different. Then give a new political context to the galaxy, maybe some interesting alien threat, one that's not insect/robot like and impersonal if possible.

If I had to guess I'd say the default ending they will pick will be Control. Sure, Shepard disappears, but so do the Reapers, and the Geth are still there, that makes the richest lore of all (I don't think symbiotic abominations count as making the lore richer). So that's like cleaning the board for new pieces. It will make people unhappy, but there has been water under the bridge and I think the other two picks would anger more players overall.

They wouldn't even have to create a ton of new races, with those that exist there is enough depth to create an interesting setting and engaging stories. They could even start way smaller like most The Old Republic storylines, where you aren't instantly pitted against eldritch abominations but start as a small-time smuggler or adventurer and stumble onto bigger and bigger threats. I'm not sure BW has realized that their best received game ever was the one where you spent most of your time facing crooks, thieves or mad krogans, and where your final mission basically "just" meant the survival of a couple thousand people at best and the death of a minor ally to the big bad. ME2 in its entirety was kind of a DLC to the series and yet it was the best part of it.

[Raga]

I've actually said the same thing about Control and that's my canon ending anyway so it doesn't hurt my feelings. Of course, you have to answer the question of what to do with the God Shepard AI, but it could just be dormant for unspecified plot reasons I guess.

[TTTX]

I would prefer now that the story is not a prequel at least because I am bored of prequels now, or the idea of prequels.
Like, I don't need to see the First Contact War.
I don't need to see the Krogan Rebellions.
I don't need to see the Morning War.
I don't need to see the Prothean era.

Can't be an RPG with those stories either, since we already know the beginning middle and end of those stories and let's be honest they would never make a ME game without a human in it which already means the Rebillions, Morning War and Prothean Era is never going to happen and the first Contact War have already more or less been told either by lore or in the comics so there isn't any real meat on the bones at this point.

I've actually said the same thing about Control and that's my canon ending anyway so it doesn't hurt my feelings. Of course, you have to answer the question of what to do with the God Shepard AI, but it could just be dormant for unspecified plot reasons I guess.

Or we could just say God Shepard decided that the Reapers and most of their tech shouldn't be part of the galaxy as they aren't ready and basically either went outside into Dark space or basically had all the Reapers and itself go into a sun and die so people couldn't get the tech.

Or just make Destory cannon and say Quarian and Geth is still there and just move on.

[Joblom]

In fact isn't that kind of erasing the whole point of the Mass Effect Trilogy's story of coming together to succeed against insurmountable odds?

This would be a different story. I don't think you understood my question. What IS Mass Effect? What is its essence? What makes it unique? Strip the story out of it and what do you have? Certainly cooperation is a theme prominent within it and it could still be a theme of what I proposed.

Mass Effect is a setting built on certain ideas with its stories told through certain themes. Cooperation is one thing. Slavery vs freedom is another. Xenophobia and competition is a theme. Personal relationships and how people influence the lives of others is a theme, as is the power individuals can have to shape the whole world or galaxy. The story I described would be about breathing on the embers of galactic civilization to ignite its flame once more. How do you go about setting the world to rights? Can you? What will it cost and what will it look like? Many disparate factions and people and ideas are competing for supremacy. A small nudge at the right time and place can have a cascade of effects over time and space, changing the whole galaxy. You would be that nudge.

It's true that in this post-Reaper War galaxy we'd see a galaxy that in some ways resembles history. Only now rather than just reading about it thousands of years after it happened we can experience it. We can explore it and alter it. It's a whole new perspective. If Andromeda had more imaginative writers it might have done something like this. The Initiative after all is seeking to establish a new society in a new place. What a missed opportunity.

[Mazder]

This would be a different story. I don't think you understood my question. What IS Mass Effect? What is its essence? What makes it unique? Strip the story out of it and what do you have? Certainly cooperation is a theme prominent within it and it could still be a theme of what I proposed.

Mass Effect is a setting built on certain ideas with its stories told through certain themes. Cooperation is one thing. Slavery vs freedom is another. Xenophobia and competition is a theme. Personal relationships and how people influence the lives of others is a theme, as is the power individuals can have to shape the whole world or galaxy. The story I described would be about breathing on the embers of galactic civilization to ignite its flame once more. How do you go about setting the world to rights? Can you? What will it cost and what will it look like? Many disparate factions and people and ideas are competing for supremacy. A small nudge at the right time and place can have a cascade of effects over time and space, changing the whole galaxy. You would be that nudge.

It's true that in this post-Reaper War galaxy we'd see a galaxy that in some ways resembles history. Only now rather than just reading about it thousands of years after it happened we can experience it. We can explore it and alter it. It's a whole new perspective. If Andromeda had more imaginative writers it might have done something like this. The Initiative after all is seeking to establish a new society in a new place. What a missed opportunity.

So basically your hopes for the franchise is to take all of those themes, say, "fuck it, we're post apocalyptic now" and call it a day?

So you're going to Last Jedi it.

How in any way does "everything is splintered and going all Clan Warfare" remotely indicate anything about how the Galaxy was left in ME3?
Even if you take Destroy as an ending you still don't have "we have no government so we're all just doing a post-apocalyptic now". Yeah it's a devastating war and they barely survive but that doesn't even remotely indicate a devolving of the galactic governments or even an indication of them wanting to suddenly turn on one another.
They've just spent a war banding together and overcoming the greatest odds they thought possible so that means they all want to do each other in now?
The new society your envisioning doesn't sound like it'd be born from this one we've just had. It sounds like it's at least 2 or three games down the line because nothing seems to indicate that they'd all just go back to fighting when they've just spent a bunch of time fighting together.

If anything there would be a big push for upholding the peace as they'd need to rebuild everything.

Not to mention all that but all the ideas of "well we've had to fight because we didn't get what we wanted after a massive galactic war" just doesn't sound plausible, especially given the characters we know.

Krogan expansion? Wrex would definitely put a control on that.
Turians splintering? From...what? Some liking Krogans and some not wanting to actually move forward? If anything it'd not really happen as they'd see they have a bit of a problem given their forces would be far more depleted, especially if they're a splinter group.
Asari devolving? Maybe? But it'd be an internal discussion and wouldn't really affect anything else as a whole.
Salarians....Salarianing? Again, they don't seem like they'd start any fighting as they'd just go back to Sur'Kesh and science it up. Maybe there would be a breeding program issue but, again, internal issue that would be solved pretty quickly as they're kinda pragmatic.
Quarians and Geth? Yeah, maybe teething problems but it's not really enough to make an entire story on given the fact that not every player likes them and they'd not risk doing too much of a focus on another race other than humans.
Humans?
Well apart from Earth wreckage we'd basically be fine. We're a pretty tumultuous bunch to begin with. Other than some small scale pirate raids we'd be nothing bad, and we have enough resources to get back on our feet.
Batarians have essentially been wiped out.
Of the minor races I don't think any of them are going to start some shit because they'd just use the "we fought too" clause.


The only thing I can really see happening is Aria, or some other pirate group, trying to grab power in a weakened Galaxy. But, again, it's likelihood of carrying a story is not all that strong.

I just don't see how the end of Mass Effect 3 and the act of everyone coming together leads off logcally to a story where the Galaxy is splintered given the views of the races and characters we met, let alone it being a story of rebuilding when we first haven't had the thing that broke them apart.

And even on top of that I don't think it would be a good story to tell, especially after we've already had something so massive that would split the Galaxy apart and it didn't, really.

[Joblom]

So basically your hopes for the franchise is to take all of those themes, say, "fuck it, we're post apocalyptic now" and call it a day?

Yeah, you nailed it.

[Mazder]

So basically your hopes for the franchise is to take all of those themes, say, "fuck it, we're post apocalyptic now" and call it a day?

Yeah, you nailed it.

That is the most lazy kind of "progression" I could think of for the Universe when we left it, IMO.
If we can think of literally any other story to tell then I'd take that one because that idea is just so dull to me.

[Joblom]

That is the most lazy kind of "progression" I could think of for the Universe when we left it, IMO.
If we can think of literally any other story to tell then I'd take that one because that idea is just so dull to me.

Well opinions and taste, everybody got 'em. I've explained my ideas, some of them anyway, but what about yours? What would you like to see the franchise do? Where would you have it go?

[Vol]

So with the benefit of a decade of hindsight, do you guys think the charge of Tali being "innocent virgin alien waifu" bait were legitimate or not? And for Liara too?

I was all for Tali in ME1, one of the guys pushing for a romance with her way back on the ancient, garbage Bioware boards. A lot of her nature was implied there, made explicit in ME2. But our very first encounter is her trying wheel and deal with some thugs in an alley, being assertive, vicious even, but a wide-eyed pilgrim. I would suspect that if I was playing the ME games for the first time, now, I would still beeline for her.

Liara has a stronger case for that, given ME1 she's literally pretty blatantly all that. Then ME2 subverts it hard.

However, I find the premise disingenuous to begin with anyway, nothing wrong that trope, it's a rather pleasant one sometimes. But it stuck out as one that I saw bandied against Talimancers quite a bit in the olden times.

[TheodoricFriede]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[TTTX]

So with the benefit of a decade of hindsight, do you guys think the charge of Tali being "innocent virgin alien waifu" bait were legitimate or not? And for Liara too?

I was all for Tali in ME1, one of the guys pushing for a romance with her way back on the ancient, garbage Bioware boards. A lot of her nature was implied there, made explicit in ME2. But our very first encounter is her trying wheel and deal with some thugs in an alley, being assertive, vicious even, but a wide-eyed pilgrim. I would suspect that if I was playing the ME games for the first time, now, I would still beeline for her.

Liara has a stronger case for that, given ME1 she's literally pretty blatantly all that. Then ME2 subverts it hard.

However, I find the premise disingenuous to begin with anyway, nothing wrong that trope, it's a rather pleasant one sometimes. But it stuck out as one that I saw bandied against Talimancers quite a bit in the olden times.

Well Tali was a somewhat more sheltered because of being a quarian, suit, living on a ship etc, so seeing a different way made her feel way more innocent in the "wow this new and exciting" kind of way.

While Liara had already a 100 years under her belt, she jut had a few problems with social stuff which made come across more of a "I don't know what I'm saying is right and that embarrass me" kind of way.

Liara also did come across a bit more confident in bedroom on the first time although that could because of her Asari opbringning as they are a lot more open with sex lessons in school so they know that stuff before they leave and Tali had a lot problems just get out of the suit and show Shepard her face how he would react when he saw it, so Tali did have a bit on cuteness scale over Liara in this regard at least when it comes their first time with Shepard.

as for how they matured well Liara did lose herself in ME2 mostly because of the writers obviously didn't know what to do with the main story and Liara herself (and other characters also just got ), after all she went from a shy archaeologist to a merciless information broker with pretty much none of her personality from ME1 left which didn't see return until the Shadow Broker DLC and ME3 where they manage to combine the 2, but to me it just didn't make her feel like a real person.

Tali basically went from a slightly more naive innocent person to a more mature still with of the same cute kind of personality with a shotgun to boot and she later possible become a leader of her people being in war and you could tell that did weigh somewhat on her mind, but she did handle it the best she could, her progress felt natural.

Overall I think Tali is the best waifu, but that's only because Liara got screwed in the writing department in ME2 (but then again you could writ a book on the missed opportunities and how writing fell on it's face some areas like Michael Bay Tranformers movie).

Then again I might just be biased since I was interested in Tali before ME1 even came out.

[Sinekein]

So with the benefit of a decade of hindsight, do you guys think the charge of Tali being "innocent virgin alien waifu" bait were legitimate or not? And for Liara too?

I don't think it is a Tali only issue, Liara very much fits too. I could not say whether one is more this than the other.

I think the issue comes from the fact that they were the two most prominent female romantic options - Liara moreso, but Tali is one of the two characters that is a party member in all three games, that counts - and that they both were of the young, innocent type. They actually were the only two characters of this type in three games, everyone else was at least a seasoned soldier to begin with.

Because of that, they also might be seen as having the least believable career development, with Tali somehow becoming an admiral, and Liara turning into Space Moriarty. Sure, it has been mentioned since the very beginning that they were prodigies, but the way they evolved in five years is far more impressive than anyone else.

Also, there is the matter that there is no male "innocent virgin alien". They did create two notable alien hunks in Garrus and Thane, but both of them (Thane even moreso) start off as way more experienced with life than Tali or Liara do. A young female player who would like the same kind of "just past teenage" romance option for her Femshep had no real option (well, Liara, but y'know...), since Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob and Thane all were clearly portrayed as "adults", even though they were at different positions of their lives.

Thane's romance is actually interesting in that he is basically the equivalent to a man in his forties, having an adult son already, and there is no female equivalent (Samara could be but she is not a real LI).

It's also true with gay options in 3: Traynor, the female option, is a fresh-off-uni newbie, while Cortez, the male option, is a widow already and an experienced soldier. Bioware has a tendency to fall on the "younger, more innocent females" trope (not that I would call Traynor actually "innocent", she might be a bit too naughty from the get-go, but the personality fits).

They are targeting the video game demography, at least in the early 2010s. I'm not sure that a hypothetical ME4 would have the same target as the initial trilogy did - maybe the LI cast would change accordingly?

(From my Dragon Age memories, if I had to make a quick TL;DR equivalent, the criticism towards Liara and Tali might come from the fact that there is no Alistair equivalent to balance things out)

[TTTX]

Because of that, they also might be seen as having the least believable career development, with Tali somehow becoming an admiral, and Liara turning into Space Moriarty. Sure, it has been mentioned since the very beginning that they were prodigies, but the way they evolved in five years is far more impressive than anyone else.

I can buy Tali becoming an admiral she has pretty go reputation with her people being a hero since she help Shepard stop Saren, the geth and the Reapers killing the galaxy, stopped that ship that had geth on it that killed the crew in the fleet and her fathers friends on the council liker her aunt and Han, not to mention the position seems to be the geth expert which Tali is and probably the best (outside of Xen) in fleet considering the people who probably were had more were killed with her father so because of her fame, her father friends and well her skills she got the job, but more because of politics and her background not because she was ready or that is what she wanted in the first place and it doesn't feel she likes being the admiral, but does it because she feels like she has to.

at least that's how I see.

[magnuskn]

Depending how much you take her on missions (i.e. "all of them" for me in many of my runs), she probably has more combat experience by the time she gets chosen as admiral, than the entire last four admiralty boards combined.

[Dragaros]

So with the benefit of a decade of hindsight, do you guys think the charge of Tali being "innocent virgin alien waifu" bait were legitimate or not? And for Liara too?

I was all for Tali in ME1, one of the guys pushing for a romance with her way back on the ancient, garbage Bioware boards. A lot of her nature was implied there, made explicit in ME2. But our very first encounter is her trying wheel and deal with some thugs in an alley, being assertive, vicious even, but a wide-eyed pilgrim. I would suspect that if I was playing the ME games for the first time, now, I would still beeline for her.

Liara has a stronger case for that, given ME1 she's literally pretty blatantly all that. Then ME2 subverts it hard.

However, I find the premise disingenuous to begin with anyway, nothing wrong that trope, it's a rather pleasant one sometimes. But it stuck out as one that I saw bandied against Talimancers quite a bit in the olden times.

I think one could make a case for Liara (but only for ME1; Liara in 2 & 3 is a different story), but I don't think it'd be fair to make one for Tali. This goes into a larger issue, I've noticed. Several of Mass Effect’s characters get hit with dishonest generalizations, untrue misconceptions, and exaggerated flanderizations in various circles, and Tali is no exception. To follow up on your example: there are people out there who think Tali’s overall personality is shy/quiet/nervous/demure/meek/unsure of herself, when that side of her only really comes out when she’s talking about herself and her personal wants--something she’s uncomfortable with at first given the extreme selflessness put upon her by her upbringing to always think of others first and putting your own desires aside for the good of the collective group-- or in her romance, an area in which she has zero experience and is in brand new, unfamiliar territory for her, on top of all the numerous, potentially fatal medical issues. (And in both these areas, she gets better.) But that’s not Tali in general. She’s more than happy to talk and socialize with others and let her opinions be known, she integrated into the Normandy crew very well on both ships, if someone sasses or insults her she’ll gladly return fire, she boldly marches into combat with Shepard no problem and can keep up with the likes of Garrus and Wrex and Thane and Zaeed on missions, and is confident in almost everything she does. (with two noteable exceptions being commanding missions for the Migrant Fleet in ME2 given the quarian casualties on said missions, which shows that she's not a natural born leader--and that can't be held against her, not everyone is meant to lead, and the situations she was in would tax even skilled and experienced commanders-- and her promotion to admiral in ME3, and that’s perfectly understandable given the massive responsibility on her young shoulders --in the middle of a war with the possibility of extinction looming over her people's heads if things go south no less-- even with her mostly being on the Admiralty Board just for her geth expertise to give the other admirals educated advice/intel and to be a reassuring symbol of resolve and stability to the rest of the fleet, not because she’s expected to be a master strategist or tactician, or personally command her own armada of ships) Shepard can start a heated conversation with Tali over the geth uprising in ME1, and Tali doesn’t back down and holds her own, showing that she doesn't just roll over. She immediately takes the piss out of the one obnoxious Volus on the Citadel that falsely accuses a quarian on pilgrimage for stealing his money. Tali kills more enemies on Illos than Garrus did. She's survived so many battlefields and missions against such a numerous and diverse range of powerful foes she probably has more ground combat experience than anyone else in the Migrant Fleet. She’s got more steel in her spine than some people give her credit for. Sure, she’s a little naïve about the larger galaxy at first, but considering she grew up on the insular migrant fleet, that’s more than to be expected, and she gets better over that as well as she gains experience in her travels with Shepard.

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg7xHf0pgt0

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u20Nd8kwZHA

[Vol]

That is a point that really bothered me once the initial emotional roundhouse to the jaw had faded, your squaddies all becoming way too influential given their origins. They did a decent job of making it kinda work, but it was also unnecessary.

That and giving EDI a sexbot frame. The relationship with Joker was much more meaningful with EDI inhabiting the ship, a prisoner of "her body" as much as Joker was, but them finding a weird form of love with each other.

Liara didn't need to become the Shadowbroker, Tali didn't need to become an admiral, Garrus didn't need to become whatever his deal was, Wrex didn't need to become King Krogan. It's a common problem in sequels, granted, where you have to push the stakes ever higher. Then we run into, "Why the fuck is the Shadowbroker, the most knowledgeable quarian admiral about the geth/Reapers, a chief adviser to the turian generals, an unshackled AI, all on one little ship?!"

Don't see what the thematic purpose was, either, since the promotions are not all that vital to the narrative as I recall.

Back to pure waifus: Is there any demand for young, inexperienced men tho? Off the top of my head, Alistair was the only one, and he was also a king, clearly not "Fresh out of high school." But the archetype is completely foreign to me. Only ever seen the male version of a blushing young maiden to be intended for mockery.

Though thinking to DA2, seems like that was the last hurrah of offering traditional male romance fantasies, as per Halper's infamous interview about Merrill and the pirate chick. More realistic, perhaps, but Bioware's supposed to be making sci-fi/medieval power fantasy RPGs. Or was, anyway. Having just finished Persona 5, they go to (relative) lengths to make sure the waifus appeal to the player's presumed tastes (in Japan). But Mass Effect, Dragon Age, their characters are more well-rounded, intended as more than the scrap of romance content, to be fair.

Actually, were any of the romance options in DA:I, ME:A, ever said to be virgins? Seems like Bioware's entirely shifted away from that kind of storytelling.

Also, as I said then, as I say now: Tali >>> Samara > Liara > Humies

[TTTX]

That is a point that really bothered me once the initial emotional roundhouse to the jaw had faded, your squaddies all becoming way too influential given their origins. They did a decent job of making it kinda work, but it was also unnecessary.

That and giving EDI a sexbot frame. The relationship with Joker was much more meaningful with EDI inhabiting the ship, a prisoner of "her body" as much as Joker was, but them finding a weird form of love with each other.

Liara didn't need to become the Shadowbroker, Tali didn't need to become an admiral, Garrus didn't need to become whatever his deal was, Wrex didn't need to become King Krogan. It's a common problem in sequels, granted, where you have to push the stakes ever higher. Then we run into, "Why the fuck is the Shadowbroker, the most knowledgeable quarian admiral about the geth/Reapers, a chief adviser to the turian generals, an unshackled AI, all on one little ship?!"

Don't see what the thematic purpose was, either, since the promotions are not all that vital to the narrative as I recall.

Back to pure waifus: Is there any demand for young, inexperienced men tho? Off the top of my head, Alistair was the only one, and he was also a king, clearly not "Fresh out of high school." But the archetype is completely foreign to me. Only ever seen the male version of a blushing young maiden to be intended for mockery.

Though thinking to DA2, seems like that was the last hurrah of offering traditional male romance fantasies, as per Halper's infamous interview about Merrill and the pirate chick. More realistic, perhaps, but Bioware's supposed to be making sci-fi/medieval power fantasy RPGs. Or was, anyway. Having just finished Persona 5, they go to (relative) lengths to make sure the waifus appeal to the player's presumed tastes (in Japan). But Mass Effect, Dragon Age, their characters are more well-rounded, intended as more than the scrap of romance content, to be fair.

Actually, were any of the romance options in DA:I, ME:A, ever said to be virgins? Seems like Bioware's entirely shifted away from that kind of storytelling.

Also, as I said then, as I say now: Tali >>> Samara > Liara > Humies

To be fair Wrex makes the most sense since he was a Krogan warchief before ME1 and he cares a lot about him people and doesn't want them to die out because of their own stupidity, so have him go back and really one of the biggest clans under him because of what he did under Shepard which gave him the support he needed, not to mention if Shepard was ever going to defeat the Reapers he needed the Krogans although it would have if Shepard had used his head and actually planned some stuff ahead and put some plans into motion, like putting Wrex up to become the big leader that improves the way of life for Krogans and at the same time makes them stop killing each other so they have more numbers when the Reapers arrive.

Well that was Sebastian (the DLC character) in DA2 who was a virgin because of the religious background he came from.

As far as I know no, Casandra is the closest since she only had one other man before the inquitstor.

[TheodoricFriede]

Well that was Sebastian (the DLC character) in DA2 who was a virgin because of the religious background he came from.

Sabastian lived a live of debauchery and hedonism before joining the church.

[TTTX]

Sabastian lived a live of debauchery and hedonism before joining the church.

I don't remember he mention that, then again he wasn't a great character.

[Mazder]

Yeah, IIRC he was sent to the Chantry because his parents thought he'd sire a bastard that'd basically be all "I am a secret bastard and I challenge the throne, on top of his already considerable leeching, partying and being a burden on his siblings.

That and giving EDI a sex-bot frame. The relationship with Joker was much more meaningful with EDI inhabiting the ship, a prisoner of "her body" as much as Joker was, but them finding a weird form of love with each other.

I did like the whole "EDI is the ship" thing. But I also kind of thought that the whole "EDI takes over Joker's love for the Normandy" was kind of present and a little bit annoying as Joker had the healthy appreciation for the ship and it's performance, on top of his love and nostalgia for the old Normandy Name and all the burden that comes with serving on a new one.
Granted EDI could help Joker through that and in reality EDI was still always the ship, but now she had a way to help Joker through his old feelings and the body helped their relationship form the distinction of not associating the old ship feelings onto the new EDI love feelings.
It serves as a divider between EDI's identity and the Normandy's identity for Joker.

Now her body being as endowed as it is. Yeah I kinda get it and also don't.

There is a theory of "some people looking away to not get caught gawping at the hot woman" but I feel that's still too much of a risk for an infiltration unit and was kind of called out on in Miranda. She states she dressed that way to make people stare at her and get caught up and off their game so she can deceive them, but that still draws attention to the infiltration unit in EDI/AVA's case.

But my horny brain goes "heh, sex-bot, noice!" so I don't complain too much.
If she was just kind of attractive and not literal sex-bot I think it might have worked better as no matter what I think any moderately attractive female visage would have been seen as a sex-bot.

Liara didn't need to become the Shadowbroker,

Liara didn't need to become the Shadowroker, it's true. But we did need some form of ally controlling things.
Mind you it's kind of the case that Liara's story kind of goes nowhere after ME1 as they kind of just didn't really think of a good story for her. The 180 twist of her not doing anything close to what she was in ME1 was kinda weird. A welcome change from the meek character she was before but still weird.
I mean her taking over Benezia's old resources and turning them to a force for good would have made more sense. Maybe she should have stayed on as an archaeologist and been more active for Prothean stuff and given the Shadow Broker plot to someone new. Maybe Miranda was investigating the Shadow Broker for TIM and that led her down the path for protecting Oriana with the Shadow Broker's resources?
We'd still have an ally as the Shadow Broker at the end of ME2 and the canon would still be Miranda telling TIM to fuck off at the end of the game, but this time she'd be telling him to fuck off AND locking him out of the Shadow Broker's stuff, meaning her going on the run makes even more sense, and would explain where Cerberus got a bunch of stuff in ME3 as that'd have been all TIM could have grabbed before being locked out by Miranda.

Tali didn't need to become an admiral

I kinda agree with this one.
If she still [i]had[i] to become an admiral then maybe there should have been more fight for it or something.
Maybe her taking Shala'Raan's place due to Shala finding the work too much or Tali feeling she wasn't being a good mediator for her trial or something.
It does kind of come out of left field that a youngster as Tali is kind of thrust into a position of power because she was on a couple of missions with the protagonist of the games.
If this was after the Geth/Quarian War and Legion was also made an Admiral then maaaaaybe but it still would have felt forced.
Actually Legion becoming an Admiral would have made for a better story and Tali supporting him for the good he had done in turning the Geth around and brokering peace would have made a lot more sense.

Garrus didn't need to become whatever his deal was,

I mean he kinda did seeing as all he was doing was being a consultant on Reaper forces and trying to get Palaven to raise up it's defences in time.
Now I kinda think he failed/left it too late but seeing as all he was given was a token task force, and only after his dad had talked to his friend who happened to be a Primarch, Garrus is kind of the most believable as he really didn't have much power. At most he had a small garrison so, maybe the same level as a colonel or a major?

Wrex didn't need to become King Krogan.

If not then the Krogans really didn't have much going for them story-wise.
Wrex was old, he had the drive and he had fought and united Clans by ME2. By that time he had been given Grunt, so that kinda helps.
I dunno, him seeing al the problems of the Krogan in ME1 and him fixing them in ME2 and 3 was kinda okay.
He recognised that Krogan's listen to strength so to be listened he had to become the strongest leader of the biggest Clan to make the changes he wanted to happen.
If it wasn't Wrex then we'd have been all "Oh so all those problems Wrex mentioned were either nothing or they got fixed by some new guy".

Either way if the story was going to involve getting Krogan on board then something needed to happen that we could identify with as a springboard.

It's a common problem in sequels, granted, where you have to push the stakes ever higher. Then we run into, "Why the fuck is the Shadowbroker, the most knowledgeable quarian admiral about the geth/Reapers, a chief adviser to the turian generals, an unshackled AI, all on one little ship?!"

Don't see what the thematic purpose was, either, since the promotions are not all that vital to the narrative as I recall.

It's because the Normandy was a pretty damn good ship.
Even by the mid point of ME2 it was still pushing above it's class as a small cruiser.
And it was rebuilt to be a mobile command centre for Anderson, so it's not as if it wasn't going to be a ship of some importance.
It's clear putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea, granted, but thematically it's a stealth command centre that can move unseen and has the combined capabilities of all on board able to direct all forces.
It's more accurate to ask why there were not 5-10 other SSV Normandy SR-2's made for all the other commanders? And that's just resources and time.

Back to pure waifus: Is there any demand for young, inexperienced men tho? Off the top of my head, Alistair was the only one, and he was also a king, clearly not "Fresh out of high school." But the archetype is completely foreign to me. Only ever seen the male version of a blushing young maiden to be intended for mockery.

Though thinking to DA2, seems like that was the last hurrah of offering traditional male romance fantasies, as per Halper's infamous interview about Merrill and the pirate chick. More realistic, perhaps, but Bioware's supposed to be making sci-fi/medieval power fantasy RPGs. Or was, anyway. Having just finished Persona 5, they go to (relative) lengths to make sure the waifus appeal to the player's presumed tastes (in Japan). But Mass Effect, Dragon Age, their characters are more well-rounded, intended as more than the scrap of romance content, to be fair.

Actually, were any of the romance options in DA:I, ME:A, ever said to be virgins? Seems like Bioware's entirely shifted away from that kind of storytelling.

Also, as I said then, as I say now: Tali >>> Samara > Liara > Humies

It's usually the case that the "fresh faced young dude-maiden" is the protagonist.
The rookie.
It's harder to make a fresh faced guy come of seriously IMO as their usually just seen as an obnoxious youngster character. You'd basically appear to just be telling them what to do until they get it, if they're a squadmate. If not then it's just the story writing itself and you have no impact on that character's growth. It's easier to make them the guy we grow with than show their growth as it's just some guy learning to be less obnoxious.

I think the only character in all media I can think of at the moment is Jaune Arc from RWBY. He starts off knowing basically nothing but perseveres and eventually becomes competent after his love interest dies. He's kind of a squadmate if it was translated into Bioware game terms but the growth is kind of out of the protagonists hands. It's just....there.
I am not sure it'd translate as well as it seems that some form of tragedy or event turns a young obnoxious guy into a less obnoxious "I am putting my srs mode on now" guy.


As far as virginity in romanceable characters I think it's pretty much because the whole "first time" scenario is a really annoyingly hard trope to write correctly without being super cliche or super cringey.
And I am glad for that.
Having the old trope of "I don't wanna die a virgin and I like you so let's bang" die off in these games is a big win for me as it's just dull.

Sabastian lived a live of debauchery and hedonism before joining the church.

I don't remember he mention that, then again he wasn't a great character.

He was a fine character.
He didn't have much to do in terms of Kirkwall though IIRC so he didn't feel as strongly as he was just there as a church guy investigating his family's murder.

Mind you I am still of the opinion that DA2 feels more like a collection of small stories rather than one big one.
I need to go back and replay it at some point to see if things were as bad/good as they were when I last played it.

[TTTX]

He was a fine character.
He didn't have much to do in terms of Kirkwall though IIRC so he didn't feel as strongly as he was just there as a church guy investigating his family's murder.

Mind you I am still of the opinion that DA2 feels more like a collection of small stories rather than one big one.
I need to go back and replay it at some point to see if things were as bad/good as they were when I last played it.

that and he didn't become a party member until act 2 so he get less development.

It does have this short story wipe, but they try with whole foreshadow the whole Mages vs Templar argument through out the game (can't say they succeed as a lot of the mages came across as crazy and the Templars just where either bad or if good ended up dying), but then again the game was made in like 18 - 20 months (because EA delayed ME3 so DA2 had to more less take it's place for that year and EA had the mentality of pushing out out games every year or so even RPGs so they wanted BW to come out with a RPG every year or so) or so and when it came out in showed as it was rather buggy, the third act was really rushed, etc.

A lot of people forgave the flaws of the game because BW was still the most loved RPG studio of the time, but it was a sign of things to come and it basically went downhill fast after ME3 came out.

[TheodoricFriede]

Also, as I said then, as I say now: Tali >>> Samara > Liara > Humies

I have to be honest, these days my Bioware romance option list goes: Merrill >>> Vetra > Tali.

[Vol]

https://twitter.com/bioware/status/1217144472108036096

Remaster? New game? Cock tease?

[TheodoricFriede]

https://twitter.com/bioware/status/1217144472108036096

Remaster? New game? Cock tease?

Cock Tease. Assuredly.

Remember when they were going to show more Dragon Age at the game awards? Remember when they didnt show more Dragon Age at the game awards?

[Alienmorph]

Not even cocktease, looks more like a sad "Remember us? We exist..."

[Someone With Mass]

https://twitter.com/bioware/status/1217144472108036096

Remaster? New game? Cock tease?

It could also be because Mass Effect 2 is close to ten years old. Hot damn, that makes me feel old.

[TTTX]

https://twitter.com/bioware/status/1217144472108036096

Remaster? New game? Cock tease?

At best a remaster at worst a reminder how ME2 is becoming 10 years old this year.

[Joblom]

Liara didn't need to become the Shadowroker, it's true. But we did need some form of ally controlling things.

Liara's whole "Shadowbroker" arc is one of the worst written and conceived things in this series. Worse than Cerberus, even. We have a sheltered, awkward, kind-hearted young woman in ME1 who by no means a social butterfly or remotely aggressive. She is logical minded to the point that she can contextualize the death of her own mother, perhaps right before her eyes, and move on without extended grieving. I find it hard to believe she'd become so attached to Shepard, much less if she didn't even have a relationship with him. On top of that, she is a Prothean expert who has devoted her career to understanding them and unraveling her fate and ME1 ends with her discovering a previously untouched Prothean world shortly after discovering the truth of their demise. So... she just doesn't care about that at all?

Seriously, the next logical thing for her character to do is become embroiled in fighting over Shepard's body and then become a manipulative and violent information broker? I cannot believe that fans swallowed this utter garbage. Of all the characters to figure out what to do with in ME2 Liara should have been the easiest; she is on Ilos continuing her research.

Unpopular opinion, I know, but then I'm also one of those cretins who doesn't think Garrus or Tali should have been squadmates in ME2. Garrus' character arc from ME1 was squandered by ME2 and Tali... she just had no reason to be there at all. In ME1 her role in the squad made sense but in ME2 her motivation is weak and lame. It's just fan service. What is unforgivable though is that by putting her in ME2 Bioware ensured that her role in ME3 would be entirely optional. She's not remotely essential or core to the plot-line that resolves the core conflict involving her people. She SHOULD have been saved for ME3 where she could be intricately and deeply woven into that storyline.

Fan service is one of those sublte things that helped ruin Mass Effect.

[TTTX]

Fan service is one of those sublte things that helped ruin Mass Effect.

I think it was more the problem they had no idea for the trilogy and where it should go, pretty much like how the new SW trilogy went to hell.

Having them as squadmates in ME2 works for that story, mostly because Garrus was more of an accident since no one knew he was archangel and he lost his squad and had no where is to go.

Tali's was basically to make Shepard feel more comfortable because they are working for Cerberus and they want Shepard to do what they want Shepard to do.

Does that makes sense? kind of at least given the story about stopping the Collectors who's plan makes no sense, giving the overall story even then it made no sense in ME2.

[Someone With Mass]

I always looked at the plot of ME2 and thought "oh, we have to stop the Collectors by getting this Reaper thingy? That's neat, but first I'm going to rescue best girl, help the teenager grow up, help my bro pop a guy in the head and then strip mine all these fancy planets." And that's how I managed to get the best deal out of the story. By ignoring it to the max and dealing with all of the side crap in order to buff myself up like in any other RPG.

[Vol]

Re: Wrex - Eh, yeah, he is the best candidate for a unifying warlord by dint of us not meeting any others that aren't awful. That's not a good reason for him to do it, because even with their suicidal cultural malaise, there should still be krogan way better suited to actual leadership, but in a pinch, he'll do. Otherwise the rationale for curing the genophage gets very flimsy.

@Job: Yeah, I'd phrase it less strongly, but that stark contrast is what put me off. It wasn't Liara at all, and the DLC made it somewhat better, but the timescale and the skill set she'd need don't work. She could've still been the Shadowbroker, tweak what that actually is, but retained her original character. Like how Garrus in 2 is what he'd be if you Renegade mentor him in 1.

@TX: I think they had a framework. Clearly, the Reapers were going to be the overarching threat. I disagree in that they never should've invaded en masse. Stakes are too high, you're locked into a MacGuffin ending then. If you kept it small, like Sovereign, or stopping the Collectors, or shutting down the "Wake up" signals, or otherwise keeping them from being an active military threat, you could've avoided a lot of the shit ME3 got.

[magnuskn]

Unpopular opinion, I know, but then I'm also one of those cretins who doesn't think Garrus or Tali should have been squadmates in ME2. Garrus' character arc from ME1 was squandered by ME2 and Tali... she just had no reason to be there at all. In ME1 her role in the squad made sense but in ME2 her motivation is weak and lame. It's just fan service. What is unforgivable though is that by putting her in ME2 Bioware ensured that her role in ME3 would be entirely optional. She's not remotely essential or core to the plot-line that resolves the core conflict involving her people. She SHOULD have been saved for ME3 where she could be intricately and deeply woven into that storyline.

Fan service is one of those sublte things that helped ruin Mass Effect.

Yeah, fucking bullshit. You were assembling a team of space bad-asses and you got one of the best technicians which you personally know. And now exactly did her being in ME2 make it "entirely optional" for her to be in ME3? You had your team, you wanted them with you, because you could trust them.

[TheodoricFriede]

I'm more of the opinion that the team from ME1 should have been the team for the whole series.

They could have added people if they really wanted, but no one from Mass Effect 1 should have ever left the team. That would have solved most issues relating to who was doing what.

They also, frankly, should have never "killed" Shepard.

[TTTX]

@TX: I think they had a framework. Clearly, the Reapers were going to be the overarching threat. I disagree in that they never should've invaded en masse. Stakes are too high, you're locked into a MacGuffin ending then. If you kept it small, like Sovereign, or stopping the Collectors, or shutting down the "Wake up" signals, or otherwise keeping them from being an active military threat, you could've avoided a lot of the shit ME3 got.

I would say the whole stop the Reaper as the over all goal, but didn't have frame work to how to do it from game to game.

As you can see from ending of ME1 where Shepard says "they'll find a way to stop the Reapers", than the start of ME2 Shepard has been ordered to hunt Geth by the Council and for some reason Shepard agree to this, the same person who defied the Council to stop Sovereign.

They also, frankly, should have never "killed" Shepard.

A coma could have done better than death, even than Shepard's death (I mean being spaced, than burn in a atmosphere and crashing into a Planet really) and revival (that's never explained other than they threw a lot of money at the problem) was over the top and Michael Bay's level of stupid.

[Someone With Mass]

@TX: I think they had a framework. Clearly, the Reapers were going to be the overarching threat. I disagree in that they never should've invaded en masse. Stakes are too high, you're locked into a MacGuffin ending then. If you kept it small, like Sovereign, or stopping the Collectors, or shutting down the "Wake up" signals, or otherwise keeping them from being an active military threat, you could've avoided a lot of the shit ME3 got.

I would say the whole stop the Reaper as the over all goal, but didn't have frame work to how to do it from game to game.

As you can see from ending of ME1 where Shepard says "they'll find a way to stop the Reapers", than the start of ME2 Shepard has been ordered to hunt Geth by the Council and for some reason Shepard agree to this, the same person who defied the Council to stop Sovereign.

To be fair, to ask Shepard to find a way to stop the Reapers is like saying "find a way to stop global warming." It's easier said than done.

[TTTX]

To be fair, to ask Shepard to find a way to stop the Reapers is like saying "find a way to stop global warming." It's easier said than done.

true, but a place to start would be Prothean ruins or Ilos considering they fought the Reapers for centuries.

[Someone With Mass]

true, but a place to start would be Prothean ruins or Ilos considering they fought the Reapers for centuries.

Well, they less fought the Reapers and more resisted them, since the Citadel trap was activated.

I think it was a mistake to introduce a solution from the past, since then they have to flimsily explain why the people in the past didn't use it or how they even came up with it, despite having very little knowledge about their enemy.

It would have been much better to establish a team of researchers, scavenge technology from the Reaper and then find a way to defeat them that way. A little like XCOM in a way. It would rely less on a McGuffin and let you actually work towards a solution rather than being given one from day one, which kills pretty much all the tension in the story, because anyone who's experienced any piece of fiction knows that the Crucible will work in the end.

[TTTX]

Well, they less fought the Reapers and more resisted them, since the Citadel trap was activated.

I think it was a mistake to introduce a solution from the past, since then they have to flimsily explain why the people in the past didn't use it or how they even came up with it, despite having very little knowledge about their enemy.

It would have been much better to establish a team of researchers, scavenge technology from the Reaper and then find a way to defeat them that way. A little like XCOM in a way. It would rely less on a McGuffin and let you actually work towards a solution rather than being given one from day one, which kills pretty much all the tension in the story, because anyone who's experienced any piece of fiction knows that the Crucible will work in the end.

true, but they would have more information on the Reapers than the current cycle would, assuming there anything survived.

but they had to since they wasted so much time in ME2 just fucking with Collectors and than have the Reaper army show up in 3 (which should be an instead kill considering the lore).

[TTTX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neso5cHZynQ

[Alienmorph]

Oh yeah... totally trust modern BW AND modern Lucasfilm to team up and make a good KotOR sequel... yeeep...

[TheodoricFriede]

So what you are telling me is Bioware is currently working on:
Dragon Age 4
Rebuilding Anthem
KotOR 3
A new Mass Effect

This from the company that had to CANCEL the initial, internally very promising, Dragon Age 4 because they needed all hands on deck to finish Anthem. Bioware claims they are working on ALL of these?

That is one thing I missed about Casey Hudson, I must admit. No one in the industry can lie quite like him. He could sell a pig farm to a rabbi and feel nothing.

[TTTX]

So what you are telling me is Bioware is currently working on:
Dragon Age 4
Rebuilding Anthem
KotOR 3
A new Mass Effect

This from the company that had to CANCEL the initial, internally very promising, Dragon Age 4 because they needed all hands on deck to finish Anthem. Bioware claims they are working on ALL of these?

That is one thing I missed about Casey Hudson, I must admit. No one in the industry can lie quite like him. He could sell a pig farm to a rabbi and feel nothing.

well there is Peter Molyneux, who is the creator or at least idea man of many beloved games like the Fable series, Black and White, Theme park, Dungeon Keeper, etc.

That guy lies a lot when trying to sell his games.

[TheodoricFriede]

Peter Molyneux wasn't so much a liar as he was deluded.

Casey Hudson will lie directly to peoples faces.

It's like comparing an old ailing Nikola Tesla to a used car salesman.

[TTTX]

Peter Molyneux wasn't so much a liar as he was deluded.

Casey Hudson will lie directly to peoples faces.

It's like comparing an old ailing Nikola Tesla to a used car salesman.

I rather say they both lie, but how they deal with the criticism once the game is out is very different.

Case more or less just dodges the questions, while Peter pretty blames everyone but himself for whatever he promised.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Tbh Todd Howard's ability to tell sweet little lies has become legendary.

As for Bioware games. I have a bit of nostalgia for a lot of them but the company as it is really only matters to me because I still have a passing interest in the Old Republic.