***Mass Effect Andromeda SPOILER Thread***

[TheodoricFriede]

Right so im ending this debate once and for all.



Nailed it.

[Someone With Mass]

Also confirmed: Kett have no balls.

[TheodoricFriede]

Also confirmed: Kett have no balls.

As if we needed more proof of that.

[TTTX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYg0X6cp0e0&list=WL&index=8

[Alienmorph]

I'm so fucking sick and tired of people pretending ME3's only problem is the ending. Seriously.

And I'm sorry, but there's nothing clever into turning your back on your main setting because "xplurathiuun!" either, and there will never be.

[UNiT]

I'm so fucking sick and tired of people pretending ME3's only problem is the ending. Seriously.

And I'm sorry, but there's nothing clever into turning your back on your main setting because "xplurathiuun!" either, and there will never be.

ME3's problem is ME2. Why do you even care so much what others think? I don't go around hating on people just cause they have a different opinion than myself. And personally I think I agree with this guy.

[Someone With Mass]

ME3's problem is that it puts drama ahead of logic. And when your sci-fi story is loosely based on real science...yeah.

[TTTX]

ME3's problem is that it puts drama ahead of logic. And when your sci-fi story is loosely based on real science...yeah.

Problem is that ME2 started the whole drama ahead of logic.

[Mazder]

I'm so fucking sick and tired of people pretending ME3's only problem is the ending. Seriously.

And I'm sorry, but there's nothing clever into turning your back on your main setting because "xplurathiuun!" either, and there will never be.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back and it's where most of the hate culminates. There is a very tiny part of the audience (usually a casual player) who thinks the original ME3 ending was good. It was something that was agreed upon by almost all. It's common ground so it got seen by outside audiences an the casual audience and became the banner for criticism and still will be far beyond.
Do I agree?
No, the guy in the video is a moron. He compares how a game that is inspired on Star Wars based story format's makes him feel like he's in Star Trek....a completely other bloody franchise.
And Andromeda doesn't ignore the old lore at all.
The guy's an idiot.

Growth?
Avoidance of stagnation?
Avoidance of a complex issue that would a few and leave the others slicing your audience no matter what you do so you may as well try to do something different in order to save face and audience?
A new vision on the story leading to potentially bigger stories?

All decent reasons if done right. Number four is very prudent though as people are still pretty Jaded about ME3 as it influenced a lot of Andromeda's hate. You only need a small glance at the situation as a whole when the game was released to see that.

ME3's problem is that it puts drama ahead of logic. And when your sci-fi story is loosely based on real science...yeah.

Problem is that ME2 started the whole drama ahead of logic.

Yeah and if they went with logic over drama they'd have a very dull wide open spaced bore-fest with less updates and less story than Elite Dangerous.
And I say that while playing Elite Dangerous.

It simply wouldn't be the same franchise and it'd have been nowhere near as popular as with drama comes story and most importantly characters.
Yeah ME1 had them but the freaking shone in ME2.

[Alienmorph]

Growth?
Avoidance of stagnation?
Avoidance of a complex issue that would a few and leave the others slicing your audience no matter what you do so you may as well try to do something different in order to save face and audience?
A new vision on the story leading to potentially bigger stories?

All decent reasons if done right. Number four is very prudent though as people are still pretty Jaded about ME3 as it influenced a lot of Andromeda's hate. You only need a small glance at the situation as a whole when the game was released to see that.

Well, that's the problem now, isn't it? We're given any real reason why the Andromeda Initiative is necessary other than "hey you want a Mass Effect game or not?" and "a few people in the project MIGHT know the Reapers are a thing"? With literally 90% of the Milky Way left unexplored, wouldn't have made more sense to just travel a few years to one of the outside areas of the galaxy rather than over half a millennia to an whole other one? Even if you want to ignore how much holes and contradictions the A.I. creates lore-wise, there's still very few reasons in-universe to try such a monumental and risky task. And even those few are left unknown to most people. Or are we supposed to believe that only a few decades after joining the galactic community mankind has nothing left to do other than leave to avoid stagnation, to use one of your examples?

[Mazder]

Growth?
Avoidance of stagnation?
Avoidance of a complex issue that would a few and leave the others slicing your audience no matter what you do so you may as well try to do something different in order to save face and audience?
A new vision on the story leading to potentially bigger stories?

All decent reasons if done right. Number four is very prudent though as people are still pretty Jaded about ME3 as it influenced a lot of Andromeda's hate. You only need a small glance at the situation as a whole when the game was released to see that.

Well, that's the problem now, isn't it? We're given any real reason why the Andromeda Initiative is necessary other than "hey you want a Mass Effect game or not?" and "a few people in the project MIGHT know the Reapers are a thing"? With literally 90% of the Milky Way left unexplored, wouldn't have made more sense to just travel a few years to one of the outside areas of the galaxy rather than over half a millennia to an whole other one? Even if you want to ignore how much holes and contradictions the A.I. creates lore-wise, there's still very few reasons in-universe to try such a monumental and risky task. And even those few are left unknown to most people. Or are we supposed to believe that only a few decades after joining the galactic community mankind has nothing left to other than leave to avoid stagnation, to use one of your examples?

Because ANYTHING connected to the Milky Way comes with a "why didn't' you address the ending's?" clause. Hell we got it with this game which is an obvious MASSIVE side step to have time to focus on another story somewhere else to maybe do another one in MW some day.
Because any story that could immediately come to min would feel like either a contrivance, or busy work for the aftermath or Krogan Rebellions 2: Electric Boogaloo.
At least with this it felt like a monumental thing to be happening that is at a Galactic scale, rather than just, say, a few humans futzing around in the Unknown Regions that brings on YET ANOTHER WAR AFTER THE REAPERS to the MW. Ad TBH what would escalate more in the MW after the all destroying robots of doom? How do you up the tension?

by removing resources and making people vulnerable, how do you do that to a Galactic scale's worth of funding, food, military power that shows it CAN and WILL band together, that is likely more prosperous than ever and any "war" would be over in a nanosecond.

Stagnation was to hint at why someone might abandon their core place, not just in terms of Mass Effect.
I mean, TBH space operas become one of three things, Star Trek, Star Wars and Dead. They NEED innovation. They need to not get bogged down every once in a while. They need to make SOMETHING happen. And if that means turning the world/Galaxy on it's head to do so I feel it must be done. We've had our invasion and war story, we're going to have our explore and war story, soon we'll get to the point where it'll turn to either joining those two galaxies and become something bigger, or it'll fade, becoming neither and ultimately weaker for it. Or it'll turn to another Deus Ex or 40K. Neither of which I like or want, so personally those two ideas can sod off.

[Someone With Mass]

Problem is that ME2 started the whole drama ahead of logic.

Yeah, but that worked somewhat because the whole thing was about how Shepard recruits the dirty dozen to attack the Collectors while ensuring that their minds (and sometimes bodies, hehe) were in top shape. I would be surprised if an emotion connection between them wasn't one of the big driving forces with the exception for Legion. Even he gets something profound in there if you talk to him after missions.

"Home" is recognized patterns. Known spaces. Familiar thought processes of sapients. It is belonging. A planet is an amount of material massive enough to collapse into a spherical volume. Rocks, ice and gasses are not "home." The home of the creators is where the creators are. Their place of origin is not relevant -- only where they choose to go together.

In ME3, everyone gets hit in the head with the dodgeball of stupid melodrama. Shoot Kai Lame instead of letting the terminally ill drell go hand to hand with him? Nah, Thane got this.

Legion is the conduit for the Reaper control signal because dun-dun-DUN. Explore the whole Dyson sphere subplot? Nah. Legion must die no matter what because...uh...you'll have too many squad characters otherwise.

The Citadel is under attack from Cerberus because BioWare didn't manage to connect the threads from the old story that got ripped out at the last second.

But I digress. I think that Andromeda is surprisingly connected to the lore of Mass Effect, even if there's not much need for it in this new galaxy. That said, I think that there's a severe lack reaction to the whole "The Andromeda Initiative was created to escape the Reapers" thing. You'd think that it'd be a huge turning point in the game, since the outlaws left because there was nothing solid for them back on the Nexus and a lot of people are in disagreement over what should be done.

[TTTX]

Yeah and if they went with logic over drama they'd have a very dull wide open spaced bore-fest with less updates and less story than Elite Dangerous.
And I say that while playing Elite Dangerous.

It simply wouldn't be the same franchise and it'd have been nowhere near as popular as with drama comes story and most importantly characters.
Yeah ME1 had them but the freaking shone in ME2.

True, but it doesn't really excuse the lack luster main story (after all the meat of ME2 are the recruitment and loyalty missions and most of them are optional) of ME2 though or the fact ME2 doesn't really add anything to stop Reapers (we stop the Collectors from building a Reaper, but it was so far from being finished, what we know of them and what they had to do to finish their plan meant they were doomed to fail even with without Shepard) or even perpare for them.

Yeah, but that worked somewhat because the whole thing was about how Shepard recruits the dirty dozen to attack the Collectors while ensuring that their minds (and sometimes bodies, hehe) were in top shape. I would be surprised if an emotion connection between them wasn't one of the big driving forces with the exception for Legion. Even he gets something profound in there if you talk to him after missions.

"Home" is recognized patterns. Known spaces. Familiar thought processes of sapients. It is belonging. A planet is an amount of material massive enough to collapse into a spherical volume. Rocks, ice and gasses are not "home." The home of the creators is where the creators are. Their place of origin is not relevant -- only where they choose to go together.

In ME3, everyone gets hit in the head with the dodgeball of stupid melodrama. Shoot Kai Lame instead of letting the terminally ill drell go hand to hand with him? Nah, Thane got this.

Legion is the conduit for the Reaper control signal because dun-dun-DUN. Explore the whole Dyson sphere subplot? Nah. Legion must die no matter what because...uh...you'll have too many squad characters otherwise.

The Citadel is under attack from Cerberus because BioWare didn't manage to connect the threads from the old story that got ripped out at the last second.

But I digress. I think that Andromeda is surprisingly connected to the lore of Mass Effect, even if there's no much need for it in this new galaxy. That said, I think that there's a severe lack reaction to the whole "The Andromeda Initiative was created to escape the Reapers" thing. You'd think that'd be a huge turning point in the game, since the outlaws left because there was nothing solid for them back on the Nexus and a lot of people are in disagreement over what should be done.

ME2 have it's fair of stupid too.

Miranda states if Shepard dies, humanity might follow, without giving a reason is to why.

TIM wants to keep Shepard alive, but immediately send them on a suicide mission, because there is no one else out of trillions of people who can lead a team of people to stop the Collectors (sarcasm).

TIM also say recruits these people without really giving a reason to why, at the start of ME2 we barely know anything about the Collectors, what their world is like, what kind of forces they have and what even to expect going through the omega 4 relay, how does he know we need those exact people?

Loyalty missions, these people are suppose to be professionals, but none of them seems to be, because they can't through this one mission without having this one thing done for them and 1 of them is a machine, apparently in ME2 we got a bunch of rookies who need to call their mother and get a cookie before being able to fight.

[Mazder]

True, but it doesn't really excuse the lack luster main story (after all the meat of ME2 are the recruitment and loyalty missions and most of them are optional) of ME2 though or the fact ME2 doesn't really add anything to stop Reapers (we stop the Collectors from building a Reaper, but it was so far from being finished, what we know of them and what they had to do to finish their plan meant they were doomed to fail even with without Shepard) or even perpare for them.

Not really. I am pretty sure that the Reaper that was being built was always intended to just get to the citadel as fast as possible and open the gate.
Seeing as the Alliance wasn't doing shit and without Sherpard doing it they'd have waltzed their way to completion.

[TTTX]

Not really. I am pretty sure that the Reaper that was being built was always intended to just get to the citadel as fast as possible and open the gate.
Seeing as the Alliance wasn't doing shit and without Sherpard doing it they'd have waltzed their way to completion.

1 problem, the Collectors would have had to attack Earth in order to finish the Reaper and let's be honest here if they did have the firepower, ships and people to do it they would have just gone to earth from the beginning instead of bothering with small human colonizes that only had a few thousands in them on the edge of terminus space.

hell by the pace they were going, it would have taken at least a decade or 2 before they had build it, assuming that humans would continue to colonize like that in the Terminus systems.

[Someone With Mass]

If the Collectors had completed their Reaper, it could have snuck its way to the Alpha mass relay and then gone to the Citadel and finish what grandpa Sovereign started. It probably wouldn't have even needed to be completed for that to happen. Also, nothing says that they're going to target Earth for the sake of getting material to complete the Reaper. They could have just chosen to target Earth at one point to help with the harvest.

They could have also gone to places other than the heart of the Systems Alliance, like Terra Nova or Eden Prime. That's about eight million people right there.

As for the loyalty missions, it's more about the state of the minds of our squad than anything. I'm pretty sure that if Tali gets exiled, she'll say something along the lines of "we'll probably end up dead anyway." Isn't that the kind of mindset you want to bring with you on a suicide mission? The reason why Thane joined up with Shepard is because he thought he'd die while doing something good. Without a Rite of Passage, Grunt sounds like he would have been more than just a little distracted.

Garrus could have been hesitant about leading another squad, since the last one got killed.

You'd be surprised how much a little self-doubt can mess up your thoughts, reasoning and actions.

Sure, a lot of the deaths in the suicide mission comes down to bad luck rather than poor judgement or lack of commitment, but that's because of the execution. The concept is solid in my eyes.

[TTTX]

If the Collectors had completed their Reaper, it could have snuck its way to the Alpha mass relay and then gone to the Citadel and finish what grandpa Sovereign started. It probably wouldn't have even needed to be completed for that to happen. Also, nothing says that they're going to target Earth for the sake of getting material to complete the Reaper. They could have just chosen to target Earth at one point to help with the harvest.

They could have also gone to places other than the heart of the Systems Alliance, like Terra Nova or Eden Prime. That's about eight million people right there.

As for the loyalty missions, it's more about the state of the minds of our squad than anything. I'm pretty sure that if Tali gets exiled, she'll say something along the lines of "we'll probably end up dead anyway." Isn't that the kind of mindset you want to bring with you on a suicide mission? The reason why Thane joined up with Shepard is because he thought he'd die while doing something good. Without a Rite of Passage, Grunt sounds like he would have been more than just a little distracted.

Garrus could have been hesitant about leading another squad, since the last one got killed.

You'd be surprised how much a little self-doubt can mess up your thoughts, reasoning and actions.

Sure, a lot of the deaths in the suicide mission comes down to bad luck rather than poor judgement or lack of commitment, but that's because of the execution. The concept is solid in my eyes.

Funny how Sovereign forgot about that relay when making his plans.

which have much better defenses then smaller colonizes, hell they ran as soon at four towers started to shoot at their ship.

I know, but it doesn't apply to all the squad mates, Grunt, Zaeed, Thane, Samara, Jacob, Miranda, Mordin and Legion don't really have that excuse for a number of reasons.

Grunt said he was fine out in the field when shooting at people, it was on the ship he had a problem not in the field, in other words it doesn't affect the mission.

Thane and Samara both have been at the game so long they know better and you know be professionals.

Legion is a machine, he can delete whatever issue he has.

Zaeed is a paid mercenary and again been at the game so long he knows better.

Jacob shouldn't care about his father at this point and it's Miranda's fault to even bring the matter to light in the first place.

Miranda is again professional and she could have other Cerberus deal with her so called issue.

Mordin is a Salarian, been in STG and seen a lot of shit, again should know better after being the game for so long.

[Mazder]

1 problem, the Collectors would have had to attack Earth in order to finish the Reaper and let's be honest here if they did have the firepower, ships and people to do it they would have just gone to earth from the beginning instead of bothering with small human colonizes that only had a few thousands in them on the edge of terminus space.

hell by the pace they were going, it would have taken at least a decade or 2 before they had build it, assuming that humans would continue to colonize like that in the Terminus systems.

Um, no.
They have taken...what, 5 colonies? 10? And the reaper's half/1/3rd of the way done.
And think of the thousands of colonies and pirates there are out there in the Galaxy. They could have easily finished it.

[TheodoricFriede]

Um, no.
They have taken...what, 5 colonies? 10? And the reaper's half/1/3rd of the way done.
And think of the thousands of colonies and pirates there are out there in the Galaxy. They could have easily finished it.

You do know that was just the core, right? And even that wasnt even close to being done.

[TTTX]

Um, no.
They have taken...what, 5 colonies? 10? And the reaper's half/1/3rd of the way done.
And think of the thousands of colonies and pirates there are out there in the Galaxy. They could have easily finished it.

well we don't know the exact number, but by the sound of it it's a good number of colonies who have gone missing, but only in the Terminus systems, they haven't touch any of the Alliance ones who have much more in numbers the Collectors need, because there isn't enough humans in the Terminus systems (Remember Human haven't been on galactic stage for very long at best around 30 years or so and most humans still live on Earth or are in Citadel Space) to fulfill their goal and even after 2 years the Reapers is still are far from 1/3 done.

So no there is no they'll finish it easily, because if they could, they wouldn't waste time with the table scraps and actually go for the main courses which are in Alliance space.

Considering the Reapers can more less be in the galaxy rather quickly, take the Alpha relay and do their thing in less time then it took for the Collectors to build less then a 1/3 of a Reaper, it's puzzling why they even bothered with the Collector plan because even if they managed to build it, it couldn't just come to the Citadel guns blazing (The Collectors don't exactly have much in terms of ships and they blow up rather easily) it would have lost just like Sovereign (that was the point of it's plan it couldn't do it alone), I mean the Reapers have greater numbers and they trapped in Dark Space as ME1 said so yeah what's stopping them for being all like "yeah we are just going to come in and kill you all and cut out the middle man", it would have been much faster and more logical then the whole Collector scheme.

[Mazder]

Um, no.
They have taken...what, 5 colonies? 10? And the reaper's half/1/3rd of the way done.
And think of the thousands of colonies and pirates there are out there in the Galaxy. They could have easily finished it.

You do know that was just the core, right? And even that wasnt even close to being done.

Yeah, from a handful of the thousands of colonies.
In the Terminus.
Where no-one from the Alliance gives a single shit about people going missing.

Plus I am pretty sure they were only using 1 cruiser. And their base was the same size as a Mass Relay, their cruiser was almost as long if it stood upright as the Destiny Ascension. It's pretty big. I am pretty sure if no-one was investigating, as was the case before ME2/before Shepard was put on the case, it'd have basically been at least halfway complete.
We don't know what size of reaper that would have been the core for. Seeing as the fleets at the time, especially them not being clustered like in ME3, would have had trouble with even a small reaper, maybe they just needed to build one of those. Which also would have been much smaller and thereby easier to sneak to the Citadel, or towards it, before being detected.

well we don't know the exact number, but by the sound of it it's a good number of colonies who have gone missing, but only in the Terminus systems, they haven't touch any of the Alliance ones who have much more in numbers the Collectors need, because there isn't enough humans in the Terminus systems (Remember Human haven't been on galactic stage for very long at best around 30 years or so and most humans still live on Earth or are in Citadel Space) to fulfill their goal and even after 2 years the Reapers is still are far from 1/3 done.

So no there is no they'll finish it easily, because if they could, they wouldn't waste time with the table scraps and actually go for the main courses which are in Alliance space.

Considering the Reapers can more less be in the galaxy rather quickly, take the Alpha relay and do their thing in less time then it took for the Collectors to build less then a 1/3 of a Reaper, it's puzzling why they even bothered with the Collector plan because even if they managed to build it, it couldn't just come to the Citadel guns blazing (The Collectors don't exactly have much in terms of ships and they blow up rather easily) it would have lost just like Sovereign (that was the point of it's plan it couldn't do it alone), I mean the Reapers have greater numbers and they trapped in Dark Space as ME1 said so yeah what's stopping them for being all like "yeah we are just going to come in and kill you all and cut out the middle man", it would have been much faster and more logical then the whole Collector scheme.

Travelling to the Alpha Relay was the plan, yeah, but there is still no reason to think they wouldn't have had two plans on the go.

Plus the Collectors were not wanting to risk exposure, in case someone came knocking, as unlikely as that would be. It is clear the reapers aren't just outside all the time waiting to come in, they're clearly doing SOME travelling and I think that the travelling STARTED in ME1, but Harbinger didn't think they'd make the Alpha relay when they did.Clearly they thought it'd take longer.

Or it was all Harbinger's in flight entertainment, which given how the Reapers are, yeah I can see it as that.

[TTTX]

Travelling to the Alpha Relay was the plan, yeah, but there is still no reason to think they wouldn't have had two plans on the go.

Plus the Collectors were not wanting to risk exposure, in case someone came knocking, as unlikely as that would be. It is clear the reapers aren't just outside all the time waiting to come in, they're clearly doing SOME travelling and I think that the travelling STARTED in ME1, but Harbinger didn't think they'd make the Alpha relay when they did.Clearly they thought it'd take longer.

Or it was all Harbinger's in flight entertainment, which given how the Reapers are, yeah I can see it as that.

Funny how Sovereign never thought of using the alpha relay (you would think he would considering it was hinted in ME1 it was Sovereign who started the Rachni war, until it was retconned in the Leviathan DLC) and they would needn't a second plan especially if they were already traviling as you are suggesting then activating the Citadel Relay would be meaningless to get the Reapers there since they moved from the spot it links too.

the Ending of ME2 says otherwise about them start traveling after the ending ME1, but ehh BW doesn't handle time well between games or even timeskips.

or more likely the Writers had no idea what to do in the middle game of the trilogy and basically decided to reuse the plotline of ME1 where Shepard looks for Saren expect most of the missions won't tie into the main other then you recruit squad mates where most of them won't even believe in the cause or even have something to do with the Collectors ,make sure that they have no personality whatsoever and just for good measure ignore the ending of ME1 have the council be all like "Reapers don't exist la la la" and forgetting all about finding a way to stop the Reapers.

[magnuskn]

Uh, you think that the companions in ME2 have no personality whatsoever? What?

[TheodoricFriede]

Uh, you think that the companions in ME2 have no personality whatsoever? What?

I certainly think they have a lot less nuance than people remember.

We tend to think of team dextro in this group, and thats fine, but those are the only two characters that had appeared as party members in all 3 games. Even then most of their growing was done BETWEEN games, not during them.

[Someone With Mass]

Uh, you think that the companions in ME2 have no personality whatsoever? What?

I certainly think they have a lot less nuance than people remember.

We tend to think of team dextro in this group, and thats fine, but those are the only two characters that had appeared as party members in all 3 games. Even then most of their growing was done BETWEEN games, not during them.

Well, growth comes with time, but the time scale in Mass Effect has always been a little wonky. If I didn't know better, I'd guess that the entire Reaper war lasted a week at best.

Same with Andromeda. Aside from the year, there's no indicator of how the time flows whatsoever.

[TheodoricFriede]

Do we know how long the events of Andromeda were supposed to take? I actually have no idea, but i never know that with Bioware games.

Apparently, Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age Inquisition are both one year. Mass Effect games are like, a few months each.

the only one that ever really feels like it makes a point of telling you time is passing is Dragon Age 2, which makes a point of five years.

[magnuskn]

Uh, you think that the companions in ME2 have no personality whatsoever? What?

I certainly think they have a lot less nuance than people remember.

We tend to think of team dextro in this group, and thats fine, but those are the only two characters that had appeared as party members in all 3 games. Even then most of their growing was done BETWEEN games, not during them.

Maybe Jakob, but I think the rest all either come pre-packaged with a deep enough backstory and experience some growth over the game or are returning characters who have evolved and keep evolving throughout the game. There is a good reason that ME2 is widely considered the best game of the franchise and the companions are a big part of it.

I really can't understand the hate-fest of the last two days here over the game.

[TTTX]

Maybe Jakob, but I think the rest all either come pre-packaged with a deep enough backstory and experience some growth over the game or are returning characters who have evolved and keep evolving throughout the game. There is a good reason that ME2 is widely considered the best game of the franchise and the companions are a big part of it.

I really can't understand the hate-fest of the last two days here over the game.

ME2 isn't a bad game far from it, but as the middle game as a trilogy ME2 doesn't really serve much of a purpose other then really pass the time between ME1 and ME3.

After all the ending of ME1 did with Shepard saying he was going to find some way to stop the Reapers because they are coming and the council or Alliance is on his side.

The start of ME2 Shepard is out hunting geth and just dying, before getting revived by Cerberus who thinks if Shepard dies, humanity might die too (somehow) and he is a symbol and all that. What can they do to protect this so called symbol well send him on a suside mission obviously, because there is no one else to send or someone else to lead a team to possible death.

And that's another problem with ME2 main story, Shepard is suppose be super important, but the game never really tells us why Shepard is important (Yeah he can lead people, but that's not a unique skill that no one else has) or why he is the only one who can lead this team out of trillions of people in the galaxy.

In ME1 it's very clear why Shepard is important he got touched by the beacon on Eden Prime, in ME2 it's basically he is important don't question it.

[Vol]

Now that I think about it, one of the big strengths ME1 had going in was that we knew it was going to be a trilogy. The biggest choice was, boiled down, what your squad looked like by the end. Wrex, Garrus, and the Virmire choice were all a player choice, so you could finish the game with the VS, Tali, and Liara, and that's it. Now, I happen to like that design, where you can completely be locked out of content if you so choose, but it's not corporate friendly quite as much, sadly.

The rest of the choices were:
1) Feros colony - Save all or kill any + Shiala's fate -> Minor acknowledgement in dialogue -> Pays off in ME2 (Shiala, Tali notes it during romance) and ME3 (Assets, I think)
2) Rachni queen - Save or kill -> Minor acknowledgement in dialogue -> Pays off in ME2 (asari on Illium) and kinda in ME3 (If you save again, rachni will help out and remain loyal)
3) Council choice - Save or kill + who goes on it if killed -> Pays off in ME2/ME3 (I have no recollection of how the permutations play out)

So all the shortcomings in character development or missions resolution or choice impact was, at the time, presumed to be handled in the sequels we knew were coming. Whereas ME4, we have no idea if the franchise will be continued after the DLC. However, since the most obvious setups seem to be Quarian ark/Ryder's mom/Scourge related, that would logically take place after the ending, unless they rejigger the chronology. But the quarian-raised human is only introduced in the epilogue, where you get the message about it arriving. I suppose Mama Ryder could be at any point after you have that scene, but eh.

It'd be nice to have some sort of confirmation that the series will be continued. If not with Ryder, than in the relative timeframe and location, so our decisions should have some payoff.

[TTTX]

Now that I think about it, one of the big strengths ME1 had going in was that we knew it was going to be a trilogy. The biggest choice was, boiled down, what your squad looked like by the end. Wrex, Garrus, and the Virmire choice were all a player choice, so you could finish the game with the VS, Tali, and Liara, and that's it. Now, I happen to like that design, where you can completely be locked out of content if you so choose, but it's not corporate friendly quite as much, sadly.

The rest of the choices were:
1) Feros colony - Save all or kill any + Shiala's fate -> Minor acknowledgement in dialogue -> Pays off in ME2 (Shiala, Tali notes it during romance) and ME3 (Assets, I think)
2) Rachni queen - Save or kill -> Minor acknowledgement in dialogue -> Pays off in ME2 (asari on Illium) and kinda in ME3 (If you save again, rachni will help out and remain loyal)
3) Council choice - Save or kill + who goes on it if killed -> Pays off in ME2/ME3 (I have no recollection of how the permutations play out)

So all the shortcomings in character development or missions resolution or choice impact was, at the time, presumed to be handled in the sequels we knew were coming. Whereas ME4, we have no idea if the franchise will be continued after the DLC. However, since the most obvious setups seem to be Quarian ark/Ryder's mom/Scourge related, that would logically take place after the ending, unless they rejigger the chronology. But the quarian-raised human is only introduced in the epilogue, where you get the message about it arriving. I suppose Mama Ryder could be at any point after you have that scene, but eh.

It'd be nice to have some sort of confirmation that the series will be continued. If not with Ryder, than in the relative timeframe and location, so our decisions should have some payoff.

Well there is also the Kett who is still around so that's at least 4 DLC or maybe BW will be nice and make an expansion pack or two instead of those smaller DLCs they have made in the past.

I just hope if they make a sequel, they are smart enough to make sure a lot of time have passed to allow growth for the races and such, like a decade or 2 would be enough growth I think.

[Vol]

I had a hard time following along with the big final battle in space, but wasn't the kett expedition force all but wiped out? The guy at the end, Primus or whoever, clearly was against the Archon and would be calling in reinforcements, and we know the kett have some sort of cluster-traveling tech that's not quite as good as a relay. So it should take some time to get them in there.

Though given the sum total of angaran and A.I. military forces seems to be a couple thousand guerillas, a nice timeskip would be wise. Unless we start using Remnant tech for security.

[TTTX]

I had a hard time following along with the big final battle in space, but wasn't the kett expedition force all but wiped out? The guy at the end, Primus or whoever, clearly was against the Archon and would be calling in reinforcements, and we know the kett have some sort of cluster-traveling tech that's not quite as good as a relay. So it should take some time to get them in there.

Though given the sum total of angaran and A.I. military forces seems to be a couple thousand guerillas, a nice timeskip would be wise. Unless we start using Remnant tech for security.

Really depends how far the next cluster is, but Primus is still around and I doubt he is all alone as they also had facilities all over the cluster. So who knows what plan he has and what the remaining Kett will do.

even with that people would have to you know die in order to keep the player somewhat invested in the story, but since the milky way don't have that many numbers to keep losing it probably would be wise to have a big timeskip between the sequels in order to let numbers grow and cities to be build and such.

[TheodoricFriede]

I had a hard time following along with the big final battle in space, but wasn't the kett expedition force all but wiped out? The guy at the end, Primus or whoever, clearly was against the Archon and would be calling in reinforcements, and we know the kett have some sort of cluster-traveling tech that's not quite as good as a relay. So it should take some time to get them in there.

Though given the sum total of angaran and A.I. military forces seems to be a couple thousand guerillas, a nice timeskip would be wise. Unless we start using Remnant tech for security.

I will admit that im at a loss for what was happening in that final battle. As far as I understand, the scourge basically follows Remnant Technology. So they were able to manipulate the scourge into basically bottle-necking the kett forces.

I dont know how many the kett lost, but it was clearly far more than the combined forces of the Initiative and Angara.

As far as what comes next, im guessing a time skip of only a few years before the kett try to make a show of force, only to be completely overwhelmed in Andromeda by whatever the new threat will be. At that point we will probably be dealing with an enemy of my enemy scenario.

[TTTX]

I will admit that im at a loss for what was happening in that final battle. As far as I understand, the scourge basically follows Remnant Technology. So they were able to manipulate the scourge into basically bottle-necking the kett forces.

I dont know how many the kett lost, but it was clearly far more than the combined forces of the Initiative and Angara.

As far as what comes next, im guessing a time skip of only a few years before the kett try to make a show of force, only to be completely overwhelmed in Andromeda by whatever the new threat will be. At that point we will probably be dealing with an enemy of my enemy scenario.

Well the Kett do have an empire that apparently spread a lot of over Andromeda from what we can learn about them and I'm guessing Heleus is on the outskirts of the empire similar to how England was for the Romans so if your theory is to be correct it would have to be a very powerful race and the only one we know of that could maybe do it is the Jaadan (the race who used the Remnant tech) which is the only other very advance race we know off in Andromeda (assuming they are still around).

[TheodoricFriede]

I personally question how big the Kett empire can be without Mass Effect relays.

I doubt that Helius was the last holdout against a galactic empire. Especially if you consider that exalted all still tend to look at least a little like their previous species. We saw maybe five kett creatures that could conceivably be derived from sentient species?

The archon says "genetic inheritor of a thousand species" but its clear the kett do not just include sentient species when they want to take traits from others.

[magnuskn]

As far as what comes next, im guessing a time skip of only a few years before the kett try to make a show of force, only to be completely overwhelmed in Andromeda by whatever the new threat will be. At that point we will probably be dealing with an enemy of my enemy scenario.

Hard to believe that players will want to ally with a civilization which likes to vivisect people.

[TheodoricFriede]

Hard to believe that players will want to ally with a civilization which likes to vivisect people.

Why not? We already allied with Cerberus.

Besides im not talking about "alliance" as much as im talking about occasionally coordinating attacks, and not immediately firing upon one another.

I also expect that some pretty horrible deals will at the very least be offered. "Give us the angara, and we will ignore your pathetic human race." Stuff like that.

I like the angara a lot, but if i was given a choice that was on the scale of "Give us the angara, and we will ignore your milky way races. Helius will be yours.", even i would have to think about it.

[Vol]

@Theo: Re: Quarian legs - I'll be very interested in how the new models work in the DLC then, unless they reuse the skeleton for everyone but asari and humans, heh.

Yeah, the Scourge tracks Remnant tech, so Ryder had the Remnant ships draw it over the kett, but I wasn't keeping up with the extent of the effectiveness. Given what happened on Meridian, I think it's fair to assume that that fleet was destroyed at the least. They must have considerable forces elsewhere in the cluster, but with however many ships are left, I'm assuming they're a manageable threat until reinforcements come in. Though that was a plot question I had, why the hell do the kett not fully control all the planets they attack? Their military strength is absolute in the cluster.

I'm more thinking population again. Need at least 2 decades to get some kids born and raised to adults, since the entire Milky Way population is considerably less than 125k at this point, without counting the quarian ark. If we're going to have the kett as the ongoing antagonist, we need numbers, fast. Unless the angara actually have millions/billions of people still around in the places we don't see.

Though I'm 100% sure the Jardaan are still alive, and probably their enemy. It was actually a decent explanation for why Andromeda wasn't super-advanced and colonized, since they didn't have Reaper resets every 50k years. Simple answer: They did get to type 1 civilizations, and then they started fighting, easy-peasy.

I personally question how big the Kett empire can be without Mass Effect relays.

I doubt that Helius was the last holdout against a galactic empire. Especially if you consider that exalted all still tend to look at least a little like their previous species. We saw maybe five kett creatures that could conceivably be derived from sentient species?

The archon says "genetic inheritor of a thousand species" but its clear the kett do not just include sentient species when they want to take traits from others.

Seemed to imply it was over a number of clusters. I wouldn't be surprised if they were another of the Jardaan's enemy's weapons. Scourge to take down the tech, kett to ruin all the life they created. But they have ships that can hop clusters, but it's not as good as the relays. Far enough that the Archon could go rogue in his mission and try to set up his own kingdom, not far enough that Primus felt hopeless in stopping him.

Wraiths are those adhi, fiends are the brute things, rest all seem varying manifestations of the kett genome. Though they did note they were getting the Archon's DNA in the exaltation, so kett might look wildly different depending on who's the one in charge.

Sentient, not sapient. Sentient means aware of environment. Sapient is higher order intelligence. Kett take both.

Hard to believe that players will want to ally with a civilization which likes to vivisect people.

I mean. We do that too. In Andromeda no less. Not the A.I. crew, but the exiles are still our civilization.

[TheodoricFriede]

@Theo: Re: Quarian legs - I'll be very interested in how the new models work in the DLC then, unless they reuse the skeleton for everyone but asari and humans, heh.

Angara. 100% chance of them using the angara skeleton.

[Vol]

Angara. 100% chance of them using the angara skeleton.

Probably. I'm fond of them being plantigrade, but it's not a big deal. Just so long as they don't ruin the feet. And the third toe. Angara, they have those adorable footie pajamas, but anatomically...

[TheodoricFriede]

Sentient, not sapient. Sentient means aware of environment. Sapient is higher order intelligence. Kett take both.

Yeaaah, im not suing that word. I have literally only heard it used in Mass Effect, and im pretty sure its not something actually used in science other than the obvious homo-sapien.

[TheodoricFriede]

Probably. I'm fond of them being plantigrade, but it's not a big deal. Just so long as they don't ruin the feet. And the third toe. Angara, they have those adorable footie pajamas, but anatomically...

Oh im guessing a full quarian redesign. They will be similar, but much more alien than they appeared in the trilogy. Also shorter, as they were intended to be.

Im also just going to say this. If quarians turn up in Andromeda, and their faces are still completely obscured, than the Tali/quarian face reveals in ME3 are non-canon. If they aren't willing to commit after all this time, then neither should we.

[Someone With Mass]

Found that salarian who was selling out the salarian ark for info on the kett. I let him go for the info. I figured that if he doesn't hold up to his promises...

[Vol]

Oh im guessing a full quarian redesign. They will be similar, but much more alien than they appeared in the trilogy. Also shorter, as they were intended to be.

Im also just going to say this. If quarians turn up in Andromeda, and their faces are still completely obscured, than the Tali/quarian face reveals in ME3 are non-canon. If they aren't willing to commit after all this time, then neither should we.

I'm betting there'll be no wide hips, and the chests will be covered with cloth or be flatter. Probably shorter, as they should've been, yes. If they go angara-legged, suppose the metal under the "heel" will disappear too.

I'm willing to bet money they'll have the masks on, but a more detailed humanoid face visible beneath the visor than in ME3. $5, any takers. And if the mask comes off, it'll be a male.

[TheodoricFriede]

I'm betting there'll be no wide hips, and the chests will be covered with cloth or be flatter. Probably shorter, as they should've been, yes. If they go angara-legged, suppose the metal under the "heel" will disappear too.

Not necessarily. Just because the quarians and angara could use the same skeleton doesn't mean aspects of the quarians have to be removed. Turians and salarians use the same skeleton in this game, and they look way different.

They would NEVER get rid of the hips.

I'm willing to bet money they'll have the masks on, but a more detailed humanoid face visible beneath the visor than in ME3. $5, any takers. And if the mask comes off, it'll be a male.

I will take the bet.

But I think you will be correct.

[TTTX]

I personally question how big the Kett empire can be without Mass Effect relays.

I doubt that Helius was the last holdout against a galactic empire. Especially if you consider that exalted all still tend to look at least a little like their previous species. We saw maybe five kett creatures that could conceivably be derived from sentient species?

The archon says "genetic inheritor of a thousand species" but its clear the kett do not just include sentient species when they want to take traits from others.

it depends on how long the Kett have been around.

Well I never said that, but according to what we know of the Kett at the moment they do have an empire of a pretty big size considering the weird genetics and considering there are limited planets with life on them and Helius was the like very rare star cluster that apparently had the most planets with a good chance of supporting life, but that was what out of thousands of systems?
Well you know limited game mechanics and the Kett probably didn't arrive in force because the Angara being all that strong to begin with even less after the Kett secret kidnapping of the various leadership and false information weaken the Angara even further many years before ME:A takes places and they do get new people from where their are so they didn't have to call for reinforcements until the A.I came around and spoiled everything.

Even if that's true the empire still have to be of some size since life isn't that common in every cluster Helius is the odd ball because of what the Jaadan were doing. Hell if you look of the map of Council space and Terminus from the milky way it looks like they span the entire galaxy, but in reality they didn't even cover 1% of all the systems of galaxy, could be the same thing for the Kett maybe the empire do span the entire galaxy, but they haven't conquered every cluster yet.

[Vol]

Not necessarily. Just because the quarians and angara could use the same skeleton doesn't mean aspects of the quarians have to be removed. Turians and salarians use the same skeleton in this game, and they look way different.

They would NEVER get rid of the hips.

Oh, I meant in the intentional sense. They'll modify the skeleton for the figure, since quarians are upright, and way more slender in build than turians or angara.

Alright, then let's double up. $5 more says the quarians will have smaller hips, in terms of hip:waist ratio, and their chests will be less prominent.

[TheodoricFriede]

Alright, then let's double up. $5 more says the quarians will have smaller hips, in terms of hip:waist ratio, and their chests will be less prominent.

Have you seen angaran women? Ill take that bet.

So thats what? 5 dollars for a visible human face/male face reveal vs Complete redesign/no face reveal?
Then an additional 5 for waist to hip ratio?

Might be a more efficient way to break this up.

[Vol]

I have. And I need to try and sexualize them in my sketchbook.

Dicksucking lips.

My wager -
$2.50 that quarian faces through the mask will remain clearly humanoid
$2.50 that if the mask comes off, it'll be a man
$2.50 that the waist to hip ratio will shrink
$2.50 that the bust will be covered or reduced in some way on the women

[TheodoricFriede]

My wager -
$2.50 that quarian faces through the mask will remain clearly humanoid
$2.50 that if the mask comes off, it'll be a man
$2.50 that the waist to hip ratio will shrink
$2.50 that the bust will be covered or reduced in some way on the women

That works with one addendum.

Im going to be very harsh on what counts as "humanoid". If its more than human face with glowy eyes, photoshop lines, and grey skin, im calling that a win for me.

It will probably still be human-ish (like angara) no matter what the change.