Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

[Vol]

@magnus: So do I, clearly the reins have been taken over by new people with different perspectives than the ones who made the games I loved. But you're not wrong, the last two titles have been oddly toothless, the grime and edges sanded off. ME3 was fucking depressing, bitter and mean at times, and a lot more. But then DA:I comes, and it's clean. There's bad stuff, but not too bad. Safe-bad, where you never get your hands into the grime of people, and you ever let your need to sin show. I liked doing that, in the transition from ME1->2, seeing the underbelly, getting to know the fringe characters. ME:A wasn't as starkly sanitized, at least to me, but I definitely noticed it.

Which is why it's a shame if these rumors are accurate, because it's easy to fix. And if they make a sequel, they're far better equipped for it now, having made an ME game once before. That's the rub here, now that they've done it alright once, they can do better next time, dammit.

[TheodoricFriede]

This whole thing is incredibly depressing.

[Someone With Mass]

I think one of the problems is that there aren't (m)any choices in Andromeda that feel impactful or affect me as the player. The only thing that stood out for me was when Jaal got angry and didn't want to talk with me for a while because I chose to blow stuff up instead of saving people.

[Alienmorph]

Because it might not fit the style of Mass Effect.
Even with NEW things it has to fit the style.
Take the Marvel MCU for example.

When doing Thor they had a certain style they needed to hit BUT they also had to match it to Captain America, Iron Man, etc. If he had his fully comic appearance right out of the gate it would have honestly looked jarring next to the others, who were rather nitty gritty.

The same applies for Mass Effect. They can do new things but it has to at least match what has come before. They can introduce new things but it'd have to be slightly slower to fit the overal aesthetic of the franchise. Otherwise it might look out of place.
But they did do some interesting terrain features and new movement concepts and there were probably some small things that were new.

Yeaah, wrong example there. The MCU is still interesting exactly because thei're constantly taking chances and adding new things. There's some common design choices, true. But you're talking of a series with characters that go from Captain America to a giant talking tree. And setting wise, again, you go from skyscrapers lotfs to space stations built in the head of death alien gods. Sry, but the two are not even comparable. The DC cinematic universe would be a better comparison... y'know... the one where they flattened the style and feel of all their character to fit the one they always got lucky with. There's difference between artistic consistency and only playing the safe bet.

So in order for any sort of risk there HAS to be a Virmire-like scenario? That's the level of drama you'd want?
Because I am honestly done with those types of stories because you know what I end up saying each and every time?
"Oh, here is out Virmire situation".
If it's reminding me of another game, especially one in the same franchise I have played before, it's not going to be as strong as the original, and it'd feel like another retread, something I thought we're trying to avoid.
Plus not every experience has to have this weird "perma-death" cloud over it. there are other types of danger other than death.

Doesn't have to be death, but there should be some situations that feels like something big happened and that not only you have a saying on the outcome, but you'll also have to live with the consequences. Y'know... like RpGs usually are supposed to do.

And I am not saying just you.
But there has got to be a point that isn't contrived. Anything post Reaper War that close to still feel the effects of it will always have a "oh, well it's just here....because we said it is for....reasons..."
It'd just feel really weak to me.

Because an organization that manages to build a fleet of Arks and a second Citadel without nobody important knowing it, that flees the Milky Way just in time to avoid the Reapers and arrives safe and sound to another galaxy 600 years later with all the crew in stasis throught the whole journey ISN'T contrived? All they needed to do is say "this is a timeline where THIS was the outcome of the Reapers War, now let's move forward". But again... risk vs safe bet. They were so afraid by the perspective of even partially "de-canonize" this or that possible outcome of Shepard's trilogy, that rather than disappointing only a small portion of the fans, they ended up doing something that didn't fully please almost everyone.

No, my problem is that just because Andromeda wasn't flawless we're getting a wave of "Oh, well this totally badass concept and would be full of exploration tingles is right now thrown out the window and treated like dogshit because we found a few holes that are linked to ME3's endings".
It's just depressing that when Bioware tries with a new concept there is no support because it's "not the same as before" which just turns any ideas they want to have in the Milky way tainted a little with jealousy.

Then it turns to mild acceptance and once played it's then back to "well....maybe they shouldn't have bothered getting interested".
When TBH it should be less of a negative reaction to why they couldn't do massive changes and instead be somewhat supporting and be all "well maybe they could do X to improve upon it" instead of wishing them to not bother with it or just abandon an idea because it wasn't as strong. Especially when I have yet to see a strong alternative or contender for otherwise.

I'd be all for a more personal/closed nit story but the universe Bioware has developed isn't populated enough, or isn't shown as populated enough to make it work IMO.
Because, yeah, something small might be okay, but we've always had grand stories with things that truly matter, we've never had personal, and I mean deeply personal stories. Everything before has been to move the Grand Plot along.

Once I see an alternative that isn't just saying "fuck Andromeda because it sucked they should have done THIS instead!!!" and actually just provides a good story, no matter the setting time or Galaxy then I'd freely say we should try it at some point. But right now let's focus on fixing what we've got.

That's the problem. The Milky Way WAS polulated enough in terms of races, lore, factions and places old and new that you could do a Guardians of the Galaxy thing, and a have a smaller and more character-focused story.. sure... every piece of expanded universe lore stupidly connected everything to Cerberus, the Reapers or both, but when you have free roam of an entire galaxy, with several interesting things in already enstablished, the potential is HUGE. Andromeda doesn't have such potential. You only have the Arks, the Nexus, the Golden Worlds, the Angara and the Kett. Instead of expanding their horizons they basically wrote themselves into a smaller corner of than the one they were before. And I wouldn't bring up ME3, if the game and the delopers themselves weren't constantly dropping nods and winks to the old games, and acting like they're still scared of their own mess.

[TTTX]

So basically your problem is that ME is too ME-looking. Well then play something else if you want big flashy aliens of many different types that have no characterization and are just complex for the sake of it.

The Angara re not Twi'leks at all. Their head things aren't Lekku as they're attached and even then just because they're bipedal doesn't mean they're "the same".

They do not look like humans with bones for skin.
Yeah they look like amalgamated bipeds because they're a petri-dish of everything absorbed. They don't look "just human" but share some traits with humans because we're pretty basic bipeds.

ME has had big flashy aliens in previous games, so you argument are invalid.

You can literally put the Angara in Star Wars and claim they are a subspecies of the Twi'leks and they would fit right in, that's how close they look to Twi'leks.

The Kett do look too human when they have the genetics of at least a 1000 species, they should look at least more different then just greyish beings with bone coming out of them.
I get why BW chose the design for the Kett because it's easy to animate, mold and all that, but the Kett aren't the Reapers who at least have the excuse of being metal that can be molded into anything, when it comes to Genetics however it's close to impossible to get a specifik design by mixing so much genetic material into one being and not mention there all the questions coming out of it, if you have all that genetic material then why are you just making races turn more grey and give them bone armor? Don't you want to enhance yourself more then just give yourself bone armor? How about wings, gills, fur and so on.

That's the point of the Kett enhance themselves and reproduce, but the information we are giving and what we see conflict with each other, which isn't new in the ME universe Ceberus and Collectors also has that problem, where the characters says one thing about them, but shows us another, like Characters says Cerberus is super secret succesful organization, but they slap their logo on everything and fail a good portion of the their projects or how the Collectors are suppose to be plan B of the Reapers, but the Reapers can already arrive in the milky way in the middle of ME2.

BW should at least try to hide when the writing and such are contrating itself so obviously, while ME is scifi it's still suppose to take place in a alternate future universe similar to ours (with similar science laws, history and such), instead it feels like BW basically at times says "it's scifi don't think it about it", Star Trek at least have the excuse of being limited by a TV budget and such in the beginning and they did also later adresse why some races looks so human (in the new generation), even in legends Star wars had a reason to why so many races looked so human, ME doesn't have that other then BW are limited by the tech, time and money, so they cut corners by choosing very generic designs, I kind of accept it with the Angara, because of their back story (I may find their design a bit lazy, but I can accept it giving what we know about them), with the Kett on the other hand I'm calling BS and say the the person who chose that design was lazy as fuck, BW have had better designs in the past.

Trouble with that is WE, the paying audience, didn't get a break big enough to have a smaller scale story set like that feel right. We'd have needed at least one game in between. Or one solid story in between. Andromeda might be that (if it's all contained within DLC's) and if it is then fine.

Well I don't think BW will try with smaller stories because of the whole DA2 not being well received because it was a rushed job.

[magnuskn]

Just want to say that I fully agree with Vol, Someone with Mass and Alienmorph about their last posts.

Also, the only moment in Andromeda when I felt some real emotion coming off the characters was the vivisection scene. Of course that moment where the Kett turn from "Religious Zealots" to "Retarded Evil" is the exact moment when the characters should blow a gasket, but otherwise I felt just oddly disconnected about the situation because the cast was just too reasonable about things. "Yeah, so we are are probably all going to starve to death or be turned into mindless slave soldier drones, but whatevs." is about how I perceived their reactions to the events of the game.

The only other time when there was much conflict about the story (not talking character interactions here, the problems which arose there mostly were centered on Liam being a dick to people) was later about SAM basically using Ryder as a flesh puppet. Which is doubly odd, given that we are talking about the most fanatical segment of the Milky Ways population who are totally a-okay with AI.

You can literally put the Angara in Star Wars and claim they are a subspecies of the Twi'leks and they would fit right in, that's how close they look to Twi'leks.

Actually there is a very similar looking species in Star Wars, the Chagrians.

[Mazder]

Yeaah, wrong example there. The MCU is still interesting exactly because thei're constantly taking chances and adding new things. There's some common design choices, true. But you're talking of a series with characters that go from Captain America to a giant talking tree. And setting wise, again, you go from skyscrapers lotfs to space stations built in the head of death alien gods. Sry, but the two are not even comparable. The DC cinematic universe would be a better comparison... y'know... the one where they flattened the style and feel of all their character to fit the one they always got lucky with. There's difference between artistic consistency and only playing the safe bet.

Um, no it is a decent example because as up to now all the films fit their given aesthetic.
They're all live action, action based films. The only one I can see that has a slight divergence from the formula would be the first Captain America because it heeded to bring things to the WW2 era.
Even Guardians of the Galaxy fits the formula and overall design. If you can look at it and clearly see they're part of the same crafted universe then it's obviously got an overbranching aesthetic.
The fact that is has common design choices is the EXACT THING I am talking about.
It has a playbook.
The same with anything that has a series.
The only difference is the Marvel MCU has had more iterations to add small things over time. If it went from, say Iron Man 2 straight into Guardians 1 then TBH it'd be jarring as all hell, and that's exactly what you're calling for with ME3 straight to "let's make everythign different".

Doesn't have to be death, but there should be some situations that feels like something big happened and that not only you have a saying on the outcome, but you'll also have to live with the consequences. Y'know... like RpGs usually are supposed to do.

Unless that's not your role.
Many times people make decisions they never feel the ramifications of or even see the results of.
Seeing every reaction to every decision I make will just make me not want to make them in the end because eventually thing's get same-y. As things already have with me with a "Virmire-like" decision.

How about instead of a "one big and obvious grandiose" decision we have a bunch of small ones that accumulate over time?
Except ME:A kinda did that, but they've just kept us moving. I agree we need some more focus on our results but just doing the "one big thing" is just going to leave the rest of the story as a lead-up and fall off and things'd get even more formulaic.

Because an organization that manages to build a fleet of Arks and a second Citadel without nobody important knowing it, that flees the Milky Way just in time to avoid the Reapers and arrives safe and sound to another galaxy 600 years later with all the crew in stasis throught the whole journey ISN'T contrived? All they needed to do is say "this is a timeline where THIS was the outcome of the Reapers War, now let's move forward". But again... risk vs safe bet. They were so afraid by the perspective of even partially "de-canonize" this or that possible outcome of Shepard's trilogy, that rather than disappointing only a small portion of the fans, they ended up doing something that didn't fully please almost everyone.

First off the nexus was about the third of it's size when launched so it's not exactly a "second Citadel" when it's in the Milky Way.
Also four ships is hardly a fleet. A wing, maybe.
We don't know if no-one important knew about it or not. As far as we know they all did, they just didn't care. In the grand scheme of things when in peacetime and when you have an entire Galaxy to mine and no shortage on resources they'd view this crack-pot bunch of explorers as exactly that.
The only comparison we can call is that because the Reaper War happens afterwards (a great bunch of public people not knowing about it until it happens out of the blue for most) there was no time to gather the same amount of resources it took years worth of mining and building to do.
Because it's not exactly as if the council races were in an arms race. There were probably laws governing how much military power they could have.
So it's not as if things were deprived of the Galaxy that never knew a war was coming (yeah a few at the top did, but most of them stuck their heads in the sand, even Hackett had to convince most of the Earth command up until the exact moment he got attacked at Arcturus...).

And, yeah the premise is a little shaky, but it's not as if the Reapers were just on their damned tails and firing at them or they were at any risk (and no the Quarian ark doesn't confirm this, it doesn't even confirm speculation about it).

And as soon as you can find me some stats for how the playerbase actually received the endings (as in who chose which) we literally can not say how many of those that played would not accept what Bioware chooses to go for in the "going forwards" part of that.
Hell, even if my "whatever ending you chose was turned into a Blasto Movie Parody and the real ending is never known" idea were taken up I can guarantee there would be a large chuck of audience that would call Bioware pansies for not addressing anything, just as there are now.
Bioware literally can not touch that debacle without doing more damage to themselves. I am honestly not surprised they want to play it safe. Anyone would. Because there is honestly not a good way out of that.

That's the problem. The Milky Way WAS polulated enough in terms of races, lore, factions and places old and new that you could do a Guardians of the Galaxy thing, and a have a smaller and more character-focused story.. sure... every piece of expanded universe lore stupidly connected everything to Cerberus, the Reapers or both, but when you have free roam of an entire galaxy, with several interesting things in already enstablished, the potential is HUGE. Andromeda doesn't have such potential. You only have the Arks, the Nexus, the Golden Worlds, the Angara and the Kett. Instead of expanding their horizons they basically wrote themselves into a smaller corner of than the one they were before. And I wouldn't bring up ME3, if the game and the delopers themselves weren't constantly dropping nods and winks to the old games, and acting like they're still scared of their own mess.

Yeah it may be populated "in theory" but we never get a populated sense. Even when on Ilium it was always a "Shepard is walking through the thoroughfare with every NPC set up by the sides for them to go and talk to if they wanted".
I mean there were three pirate gangs for about half the Galaxy that felt like a local scuffle! The scale is all wrong in the ME-verse as you never FEEL small. At least I never did. I never got a grand scale from the Universe. I never felt I was looking up at something and feeling my size, it all felt on the same level kinda.
The first time I experienced that feeling in ME?
When Vetra was shown to be her proper height.
In Andromeda scale at a personal level was finally being introduced. But if they had never made it it might not have even been there. Yeah, they had to play safe with a lot of things, I will admit that, but it's not as if it was all entirely as mundane as people are making it. IT pushes some things in areas people completely overlook.
Do I want to return to the Milky Way? Sure.
Do I want it to be now because a new concept wasn't massively new and outstanding and a massive change from the rest of everything? No.
Do I find it odd they chose to make this where they did? No, wee NEEDED a break from the Milky Way, we NEED the detachment, so that when we go back it FEELS like home all the more and it makes it BETTER and not just "because we had to".

Actually there is a very similar looking species in Star Wars, the Chagrians.

Well, to be fair that's only the females and only at the head and shoulders-ish.
But they're still not attached like the Angara. And that's only when you take them at the really far away "looks like a blue blob" level of view with it.
At the same scale you could call a Krogan a fat and bony human with a hunchback. But that's not what they are.

ME has had big flashy aliens in previous games, so you argument are invalid.

You can literally put the Angara in Star Wars and claim they are a subspecies of the Twi'leks and they would fit right in, that's how close they look to Twi'leks.

The Kett do look too human when they have the genetics of at least a 1000 species, they should look at least more different then just greyish beings with bone coming out of them.
I get why BW chose the design for the Kett because it's easy to animate, mold and all that, but the Kett aren't the Reapers who at least have the excuse of being metal that can be molded into anything, when it comes to Genetics however it's close to impossible to get a specifik design by mixing so much genetic material into one being and not mention there all the questions coming out of it, if you have all that genetic material then why are you just making races turn more grey and give them bone armor? Don't you want to enhance yourself more then just give yourself bone armor? How about wings, gills, fur and so on.

That's the point of the Kett enhance themselves and reproduce, but the information we are giving and what we see conflict with each other, which isn't new in the ME universe Ceberus and Collectors also has that problem, where the characters says one thing about them, but shows us another, like Characters says Cerberus is super secret succesful organization, but they slap their logo on everything and fail a good portion of the their projects or how the Collectors are suppose to be plan B of the Reapers, but the Reapers can already arrive in the milky way in the middle of ME2.

BW should at least try to hide when the writing and such are contrating itself so obviously, while ME is scifi it's still suppose to take place in a alternate future universe similar to ours (with similar science laws, history and such), instead it feels like BW basically at times says "it's scifi don't think it about it", Star Trek at least have the excuse of being limited by a TV budget and such in the beginning and they did also later adresse why some races looks so human (in the new generation), even in legends Star wars had a reason to why so many races looked so human, ME doesn't have that other then BW are limited by the tech, time and money, so they cut corners by choosing very generic designs, I kind of accept it with the Angara, because of their back story (I may find their design a bit lazy, but I can accept it giving what we know about them), with the Kett on the other hand I'm calling BS and say the the person who chose that design was lazy as fuck, BW have had better designs in the past.

Okay, which? Which are big and flashy AND important enough to have a fanbase/following?

Um, no, just straight up no. you clearly don't look at Angara enough to even say they look different from what we've had before, colour blue and being bipedal non-withstanding.

Um, I can answer all of that and that is they're turning OTHER races into Kett whilst upgrading the KETT base. kett don't have wings so a Kett with wings is an impure Kett, so they're not allowed. It's kinda their whole reason for doing what they do in the first place. They're an amalgamation of advantages but also fit the Kett as much as possible. Kett don't have four eyes, but they've enhanced the eyes they have as much as possible. Anythign else would not fit the religious meaning they have.

Plus, if ANYTHING the Kett are closer to Krogan than they are to Humans.

What information contradicts itself?
They kidnap, they absorb and enhance and they continue on. I don't see the conflict.

Limited TV budget...
Yeah, it's not as if the game has a limited budget or anything... /sarcasm.

And so your argument for "why can't Bioware do more designs" is....the exact reason why they can't, PLUS the reasosn of it not fitting if it comes all at once.
So....why is there an argument again?
Because "ME doesn't have that other then BW are limited by the tech, time and money," means precisely why most aliens are bipedal humanoids. most of the differences is in the details. Like the fact that Kett have a hierarchy system expressed in their bone crests and bone structures. But , nah that's too "generic".

[Alienmorph]

Um, no it is a decent example because as up to now all the films fit their given aesthetic.
They're all live action, action based films. The only one I can see that has a slight divergence from the formula would be the first Captain America because it heeded to bring things to the WW2 era.
Even Guardians of the Galaxy fits the formula and overall design. If you can look at it and clearly see they're part of the same crafted universe then it's obviously got an overbranching aesthetic.
The fact that is has common design choices is the EXACT THING I am talking about.
It has a playbook.
The same with anything that has a series.
The only difference is the Marvel MCU has had more iterations to add small things over time. If it went from, say Iron Man 2 straight into Guardians 1 then TBH it'd be jarring as all hell, and that's exactly what you're calling for with ME3 straight to "let's make everythign different".

There IS a playbook, yes, but the further away you go from Earth and the Avengers, the more things get unique and crazy-looking. The bigger amount of entries in the series helps a big deal, but if we go by your logic any crazy character like Yondu or Rocket Racoon should look like they were earthborn people for consistency's sake. As opposed to the DCU where they're sistematically Batman-izing all of their character, no matter how more colorful and light-hearted they were supposed to be.

Unless that's not your role.
Many times people make decisions they never feel the ramifications of or even see the results of.
Seeing every reaction to every decision I make will just make me not want to make them in the end because eventually thing's get same-y. As things already have with me with a "Virmire-like" decision.

How about instead of a "one big and obvious grandiose" decision we have a bunch of small ones that accumulate over time?
Except ME:A kinda did that, but they've just kept us moving. I agree we need some more focus on our results but just doing the "one big thing" is just going to leave the rest of the story as a lead-up and fall off and things'd get even more formulaic.

So you're arguing that having branching storylines in RPGs is too videogame-y? I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from, at least. But Andromeda doesn't really have that going for either, it's just a bunch of "choose your dialogue" wheels, and nothing small or big chances most of the times. Lets use example our favorite space waifu Tali... if you have a full range of options with her, from being the love of her life to murdering her entire species, and pretty much everything the plot could call for inbetween those extremes. Is there anything like that in Andromeda? Nope.

First off the nexus was about the third of it's size when launched so it's not exactly a "second Citadel" when it's in the Milky Way.
Also four ships is hardly a fleet. A wing, maybe.
We don't know if no-one important knew about it or not. As far as we know they all did, they just didn't care. In the grand scheme of things when in peacetime and when you have an entire Galaxy to mine and no shortage on resources they'd view this crack-pot bunch of explorers as exactly that.
The only comparison we can call is that because the Reaper War happens afterwards (a great bunch of public people not knowing about it until it happens out of the blue for most) there was no time to gather the same amount of resources it took years worth of mining and building to do.
Because it's not exactly as if the council races were in an arms race. There were probably laws governing how much military power they could have.
So it's not as if things were deprived of the Galaxy that never knew a war was coming (yeah a few at the top did, but most of them stuck their heads in the sand, even Hackett had to convince most of the Earth command up until the exact moment he got attacked at Arcturus...).

And, yeah the premise is a little shaky, but it's not as if the Reapers were just on their damned tails and firing at them or they were at any risk (and no the Quarian ark doesn't confirm this, it doesn't even confirm speculation about it).

And as soon as you can find me some stats for how the playerbase actually received the endings (as in who chose which) we literally can not say how many of those that played would not accept what Bioware chooses to go for in the "going forwards" part of that.
Hell, even if my "whatever ending you chose was turned into a Blasto Movie Parody and the real ending is never known" idea were taken up I can guarantee there would be a large chuck of audience that would call Bioware pansies for not addressing anything, just as there are now.
Bioware literally can not touch that debacle without doing more damage to themselves. I am honestly not surprised they want to play it safe. Anyone would. Because there is honestly not a good way out of that.

I will say one more think about the shaky premise: they also created a gigantic plothole by having Liara knowing of the Andromeda Initiative despite the fact she never tells anything to anyone about it, not even Shepard, when showing him/her her little doomsday recording... you'd think she might want to mention to the guy that's got the weight of an whole galaxy on his shoulder and that she might be in love with that it won't be all for nothing and that their civilization will live on even if they fail. But nope thinking of that inconsistency would require sense, and Mac Walters not wanting to worship his blueberry waifu even in a game where she's not supposed to be featured.

As for how to deal with ME3, it's a no-win scenario, for sure, but you'll never convince me that leaving the whole setting behind and looking the other way was the right way to not-lose.

Yeah it may be populated "in theory" but we never get a populated sense. Even when on Ilium it was always a "Shepard is walking through the thoroughfare with every NPC set up by the sides for them to go and talk to if they wanted".
I mean there were three pirate gangs for about half the Galaxy that felt like a local scuffle! The scale is all wrong in the ME-verse as you never FEEL small. At least I never did. I never got a grand scale from the Universe. I never felt I was looking up at something and feeling my size, it all felt on the same level kinda.
The first time I experienced that feeling in ME?
When Vetra was shown to be her proper height.
In Andromeda scale at a personal level was finally being introduced. But if they had never made it it might not have even been there. Yeah, they had to play safe with a lot of things, I will admit that, but it's not as if it was all entirely as mundane as people are making it. IT pushes some things in areas people completely overlook.
Do I want to return to the Milky Way? Sure.
Do I want it to be now because a new concept wasn't massively new and outstanding and a massive change from the rest of everything? No.
Do I find it odd they chose to make this where they did? No, wee NEEDED a break from the Milky Way, we NEED the detachment, so that when we go back it FEELS like home all the more and it makes it BETTER and not just "because we had to".

So what you want you want an whole other bunch of games set in Andromeda before even considering walking back to the milky way, despite the fact it wouldn't magicilly undo the problems the series had in the past by letting more time pass? And things like the different heights and proportions of the aliens are important touches, but those are more technical problems, and things they would and should improve upon no what the game is about or where it's set. Not to mention that if ME:A proved to be succesfull, they would simply not have any reason walk back into the hot mess the previous setting in the series ended up being. It would make no sense on a business standpoint.

[Mazder]

There IS a playbook, yes, but the further away you go from Earth and the Avengers, the more things get unique and crazy-looking. The bigger amount of entries in the series helps a big deal, but if we go by your logic any crazy character like Yondu or Rocket Racoon should look like they were earthborn people for consistency's sake. As opposed to the DCU where they're sistematically Batman-izing all of their character, no matter how more colorful and light-hearted they were supposed to be.

Yeah, but the point is they changed slowly. They didn't jump straight to Guardians level they grew up to it. The same would need to happen with ME.

So you're arguing that having branching storylines in RPGs is too videogame-y? I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from, at least. But Andromeda doesn't really have that going for either, it's just a bunch of "choose your dialogue" wheels, and nothing small or big chances most of the times. Lets use example our favorite space waifu Tali... if you have a full range of options with her, from being the love of her life to murdering her entire species, and pretty much everything the plot could call for inbetween those extremes. Is there anything like that in Andromeda? Nope.

Yeah, but the main difference is the Tali thing accumulates over 3 games, 3 different iterations of interaction, each one built upon from the last. This is a new beginning/fresh story, you need to start at the beginning again in some respects. So that's the main reason why Andromeda feels a little weaker. I don't agree it should be that way, but my argument isn't if I agree with it or not, it's about how the reason affects it's surrounding game.
I feel the "choose your own story" is pretty much the exact reason why we play RPG's in the first place. The fact we have so much of a branching path would be the sole reason why we play. The only downside in Andromeda's case is all the results are left for DLC. Again, I don't agree with the decision, but I can see the process being used and I can compare what we DO have and the path planned against any potential replacement. Especially as I've not heard a replacement that hits what we currently have.

I will say one more think about the shaky premise: they also created a gigantic plothole by having Liara knowing of the Andromeda Initiative despite the fact she never tells anything to anyone about it, not even Shepard, when showing him/her her little doomsday recording... you'd think she might want to mention to the guy that's got the weight of an whole galaxy on his shoulder and that she might be in love with that it won't be all for nothing and that their civilization will live on even if they fail. But nope thinking of that inconsistency would require sense, and Mac Walters not wanting to worship his blueberry waifu even in a game where she's not supposed to be featured.

As for how to deal with ME3, it's a no-win scenario, for sure, but you'll never convince me that leaving the whole setting behind and looking the other way was the right way to not-lose.

What good would it have honestly done to mention that?
It's better she have Shepard focus and give it their all as if it's their last. There is a strength on being the last of a fight that'd give extra tenacity, courage, focus and bravery, maybe enough to win the fight.
And as far as she knows she doesn't even know if they made it, nor does she have a way of checking, so it'd be a false hope at best.
It's not really a plot hole because there is no interaction Shepard can have that'd be possible.
The only interaction Shepard would have with it was the stupid marketing messages made by Bioware that conversely don't end up in the game at all.

So what you want you want an whole other bunch of games set in Andromeda before even considering walking back to the milky way, despite the fact it wouldn't magicilly undo the problems the series had in the past by letting more time pass? And things like the different heights and proportions of the aliens are important touches, but those are more technical problems, and things they would and should improve upon no what the game is about or where it's set. Not to mention that if ME:A proved to be succesfull, they would simply not have any reason walk back into the hot mess the previous setting in the series ended up being. It would make no sense on a business standpoint.

They've started a story in Andromeda. Now they can either finish it in DLC, which is the more likely for me, or they can continue it as a spin-off and we could have two sets of MAss Effect based games.
I mean what if this isn't a "one replacing the other" scenario? What if we could have both?
And my main point is if "just moving to a new place" is seen as lazy by you then how is "we just wait for time to pass" not equally, or even more, lazy? How is that better?


TBH the entire game's story is based on technical limitations...
If you don't have the engine to do it, which before they didn't, you can't do some things. Such as giving the scale of being dwarfed and feeling small in a large Galaxy.
Plus, tbh, some things would go out the window. The more closed-nit type of story would have to be more linear and less RPG as you'd need to throw out some of the resources used for the open world nature/big Galaxy Map with landable planets. You'd need to railroad a little through set-pieces.
OR you'd need to make a different style of game entirely, and that leads on to "what if it doesn't feel like Mass Effect any more?"

[Someone With Mass]

Another thing that bothers me about the kett is their motive for finding the Remnant vaults. Since a large portion of the game is about finding resources (yay...), I think it would had been more interesting if they had their sights set on learning how to use the vaults to strip planets entirely of valuable materials within days and learn enough about the vaults to reverse-engineer the technology and spread that knowledge to the rest of their empire. It would also pose a much larger threat to the established colonies than random kidnappings and/or small raids.

Not to mention that their way of reproducing is fucking stupid. If they're that skilled at genetic manipulation, why not just clone an offspring and deal with the genetic defects? Having to rely on other races to increase your own population (doesn't help that you'll only get one kett out of every person that's exalted) is the biggest genetic weakness of them all, if you ask me. At least the parasitic organisms we have that lay eggs inside their hosts or manipulate them to get into their homes have ways to multiply to a high degree.

Also, wasn't it your favorite part when Harbinger went on and on about embracing your genetic destiny? That never got old back then.

[Alienmorph]

OR you'd need to make a different style of game entirely, and that leads on to "what if it doesn't feel like Mass Effect any more?"

Changing genre or style abit is not always a bad idea, a good example is the latest Resident Evil: it's the first in the series that's a first person shooter/survival horror hybrid and it worked out great.

Or to do a more seasoned but still valid example, see what Nintendo ended up doing with Metroid: you had the Prime games that were excellent, and when Nintendo tried to stick more to the classic formula we got Other M, which was so bland and bad that the franchise has yet to recover from it.

Sometimes taking some risks and changing things up, rather than being "fans just want more of the same, but with fancier graphics!" is not necessarily the wrong thing to do. At least as long as you do it right, and not trying to just copy what's popular.

[Dragaros]

https://www.polygon.com/comics/2017/5/1 ... ry-preview

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsRkqzkHLxY

[SciFlyBoy]

new gun video

I don't know, maybe it's just not my style, but standing a foot away from a baddie with my assault rifle going of in his face and watching him stand there while thirty bullets slowly whittle his health down... I would have switched to a pistol or shotgun at that point, or something that would make the enemy stagger or fall back. It just seems like the new gun is kind of, light? Maybe I'd have a Revenant as a sole weapon, but I'd use an AR to bring the shields down then switch to something else to finish them off. Something that doesn't take 30 or more shots. Anyone else get that vibe?

[TheodoricFriede]

...So the Archon is alive then?

[Mazder]

Changing genre or style abit is not always a bad idea, a good example is the latest Resident Evil: it's the first in the series that's a first person shooter/survival horror hybrid and it worked out great.

Or to do a more seasoned but still valid example, see what Nintendo ended up doing with Metroid: you had the Prime games that were excellent, and when Nintendo tried to stick more to the classic formula we got Other M, which was so bland and bad that the franchise has yet to recover from it.

Sometimes taking some risks and changing things up, rather than being "fans just want more of the same, but with fancier graphics!" is not necessarily the wrong thing to do. At least as long as you do it right, and not trying to just copy what's popular.

True, I'm not certain a big risk like that would be great at this point but it could work.
We can either wait until an opportune moment to try that or have a make or break with a huge risk to break. I kinda don't want the break.

...So the Archon is alive then?

Where did that come from?

[TheodoricFriede]

...So the Archon is alive then?

Where did that come from?

Is that second page not the Archon?

[Mazder]

...So the Archon is alive then?

Where did that come from?

Is that second page not the Archon?

No, it's a Salarian.
Dark Horse's art style has never gotten any of the ME races right IMO.

[TheodoricFriede]

No, it's a Salarian.

...
Bullshit...

[Mazder]

No, it's a Salarian.

...
Bullshit...

Like build, kinda tall, head shape kinda fits more horns than a circle in the first image if you assume it's turned to the left slightly, coupled with the low angle, plus the head is more tall and thin, the Archon's being rather wide with a large circle adornment.

Plus, why would the Archon us LOKI Mechs to experiment on himself?
Wouldn't he use Kett tools?

So, yeah, Dark Horse "accuracy" strikes again.

[TheodoricFriede]

Plus, why would the Archon us LOKI Mechs to experiment on himself?
.

I figured it was the Initiative experimenting on his body...

[Mazder]

Plus, why would the Archon us LOKI Mechs to experiment on himself?
.

I figured it was the Initiative experimenting on his body...

Nah, the subject operated on is in control of the experiment as they activate the procedure with a voice command, given context clues as the light behind both subject and activator is the same, both with same head size and shape.

[TTTX]

I figured it was the Initiative experimenting on his body...

that's kinda hard since this comic takes place before ME:A even begins.

[TheodoricFriede]

I figured it was the Initiative experimenting on his body...

that's kinda hard since this comic takes place before ME:A even begins.

I THOUGHT IT STARTED IN THE POST GAME AND WAS A FLASHBACK OK?!?

[Alienmorph]

If we could get back the BioWare of around ME2 and DA:O, that would be nice and dandy. Also, less of those gigantic open worlds with not enough story content but endless fetch quests, please. More directed storytelling, like we had before. I'd rather take any day of the week a 50-60 hours game full of story than a bloated leviathan of 90-100 hours, where those added 40 hours consists of scanning things and driving around in circles.

I fear that ship is sailed. Most of the people that worked on the old good BW games have left the company, and open world games are the industry's favorite new copout, as it's much easier to make a big good looking open-world and pad out the game with a collecting and crafting system (see every Far Cry game ever, minus the first one or two) than writing longer and more interesting stories and sidequests that require more cinematics, more voice acting and all-around more effort. It's very sad that creating an open-world game for many companies have become a way to play safe and lazy, really.

There ARE still good open world game, RPGs or now (see Horizon Zero Dawn and the whole Witcher series) but BW need work much much harder if they want to even come close to that lever. And to fire whatever SJW imbecile that think "Sorry, my face is tired" and "Back home my name was *male name here* but was never who I was" is well-written dialogue, or that pretty women must be banned from videogames because thei're unrealistic, but modeling the male protagonist after a model that they have the hots for is fine. That'd be really fucking helpful too.

[Someone With Mass]

What a game needs is a good budget and a decent development time that doesn't involve making everything from scratch when you have a perfectly good engine that's been working just fine in the past.

If the budget for Andromeda was $40 million, then that's sad, because it's less than the Deadpool movie and even that budget was considered chump change.

[Someone With Mass]

I just noticed that the bones protruding from the shins on the turian agent are also unprotected. The guy is practically running around in shorts.

[magnuskn]

I fear that ship is sailed. Most of the people that worked on the old good BW games have left the company, and open world games are the industry's favorite new copout, as it's much easier to make a big good looking open-world and pad out the game with a collecting and crafting system (see every Far Cry game ever, minus the first one or two) than writing longer and more interesting stories and sidequests that require more cinematics, more voice acting and all-around more effort. It's very sad that creating an open-world game for many companies have become a way to play safe and lazy, really.

There ARE still good open world game, RPGs or now (see Horizon Zero Dawn and the whole Witcher series) but BW need work much much harder if they want to even come close to that lever. And to fire whatever SJW imbecile that think "Sorry, my face is tired" and "Back home my name was *male name here* but was never who I was" is well-written dialogue, or that pretty women must be banned from videogames because thei're unrealistic, but modeling the male protagonist after a model that they have the hots for is fine. That'd be really fucking helpful too.

If they would fill the open world with meaningful content, like The Witcher 3 did, then I'd be happy. Short stories with some unexpected twists would fill out the setting nicely. But "Yo, put receivers on all planets, kthxbye!" is not meaningful content in any way.

When I finally can free up the gigantic chunk of time I'll need for my NG+ of Witcher 3 with both Hearts of Stone and Blood and Wine, I'll very happily go for my third full playthrough. But that is because in that game they cared and did not give a fuck about SJW bullshit, instead staying authentic to the setting.

[Someone With Mass]

I think it's because they looked at Star Wars The Old Republic and thought that was a good model for Andromeda.

Never mind that fetch quests are suited best for MMOs, since the entire point of them is to get quick loot, XP and money without being bogged down by story. Or that collecting/killing a certain amount of something is working best when you're passing through an area multiple times on the way to other quests or if there are a lot of the same thing in several areas. Which is also better for MMOs, in my opinion.

The really sad thing is that the rewards for these quests in Andromeda aren't that good either. It's like they took several systems from different kinds of games and put them in a blender and hoped for the best.

[TTTX]

I think it's because they looked at Star Wars The Old Republic and thought that was a good model for Andromeda.

Never mind that fetch quests are suited best for MMOs, since the entire point of them is to get quick loot, XP and money without being bogged down by story. Or that collecting/killing a certain amount of something is working best when you're passing through an area multiple times on the way to other quests or if there are a lot of the same thing in several areas. Which is also better for MMOs, in my opinion.

The really sad thing is that the rewards for these quests in Andromeda aren't that good either. It's like they took several systems from different kinds of games and put them in a blender and hoped for the best.

well DA:I had it too and at least some of those people from DA:I did work on ME:A, so that would explain it.

[Raga]

I don't like a lot of the direction they have taken either, but I will still take this over no RPGs at all. Bioware, Bethesda, and Obsdian are pretty much the only reasons I even play games any more and don't just read books instead. As I've gotten older, my patience for anything that isn't an RPG has just evaporated.

[TTTX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUHHjmS4f1I&index=17&list=WL

[Alienmorph]

Normally I'd agree with this guy, but then I remember all the times EA put on hiatus or dowscaled series and companies they owned, and what happened to those...

Seriously, is there any series EA put on ice that was ever properly allowed to make a comeback?

[SciFlyBoy]

ME:A froze on me about 6 times on Sat. Half was during a drive down a hill on Kadara and the other half was during the loading screen after I restarted my Xbox and tried to resume the game. That night I had a dream that I was in the Mako trying to go down that very same hill, but I kept being thrown back and repeated going down that hill seemed like an infinite amount of times, until I was too fed up and went on my own adventure.

Seriously, never experienced freezing like that before.

[Someone With Mass]

Normally I'd agree with this guy, but then I remember all the times EA put on hiatus or dowscaled series and companies they owned, and what happened to those...

Seriously, is there any series EA put on ice that was ever properly allowed to make a comeback?

I would say Command & Conquer, but then I remember what they did in C&C4 and don't want it to return.

[Riptide]

I think Mass Effect might well and truly be dead now.

God, I wish I could go back in time to ME2. There was so much promise back then for such a cool setting.

[TheodoricFriede]

Its all still very cool.

This game was killed by memes.

[Alienmorph]

Yeah, it IS sad no doubt. Would have been better if it ended with ME3, rather than give another game to make to the B-team and go away with a whimper. But that's how medias and greed work... very few things are allowed to end on a high note nowadays and get instead dragged way past any dignity is left in them, just to make more money.

[TheodoricFriede]

Would have been better if it ended with ME3,

end on a high note

Now who's delusional?

[Alienmorph]

LoL

Good point, actually.

But might as well ended when there was still a plot worth following, no matter how crappy the execution of it was.

[TTTX]

I think Mass Effect might well and truly be dead now.

God, I wish I could go back in time to ME2. There was so much promise back then for such a cool setting.

I would rather say ME1 had the promise, ME2 just have the more refined gameplay and better writing for most of the squad mates, but in terms of main story ME2 falls rather flat on it's face for a number of reasons (some of the same reasons that plagues the ME3 plot, like the game says 1 thing, but does another without any explanation, you like Cerberus attacking Surkesh or the Citadel in ME3 even though makes no sense to what they want to do, Shepard at end of ME1 is very hung up on finding a way to stop the Reapers, start of ME2 out hunting geth and doesn't seem that interested in finding anyway what so ever to find a way to stop the Reapers, yeah he stops the Collectors but they aren't that much as a threat as ME2 keeps trying to tell us they are, not to mention their plan is very dumb, but to be fair so are most of Cerberus plans too in most of the series.).

ME2 is a great game, but I think from a story point of view in a trilogy ME2 is a pretty terrible sequel since it doesn't really do anything to the overall plot of stopping the Reapers (and the Collectors could very easily be stopped, by having a small army of ships around the Omega 4 relay as 1 example and their plan is very dumb, just build a Reaper and what? do the same thing as Sovereign did?). Hell most of the recruitment missions and all the loyalty have nothing with the Collectors or even the Reapers (you know other then you get a new squadmate and now their daddy or so issue is dealt with so now they can do their job) aside from the Arrival DLC doesn't really stop the Reapers in anything.

At the end of ME2 Shepard hasn't really learned anything new and useful in stopping the Reapers (We learn how they are made, but that's not useful information), hell if you choose a certain dialog choice after blowing up the Collector base, Shepard can say "I'm going to win this war and I'm going to do it without sacrificing the soul of our species." and he doesn't give a single reason to how he is going to do it, hell Shepard is more or less back where he started in the end of ME1, he has nothing but the knowledge the Reapers are coming (+ a new ship and a dozen new friends, but that's not an army, Aragon in Lord of the Rings Two Towers at least earned the help of an army to help him defeat Sauron later, Shepard can't even claim he has that at the end of ME2.)

[Alienmorph]

The overall plot of ME was always rather stock. ME2 excels because it focus less on the overarching storyline and more on the characters and setting.

Ultimately, the apocalyptic scale of the main storyline has been one of the major undoings of Mass Effect. If it was something smaller, and that didn't end with an almost literal "setting the sets on fire" moment, things would have been much different.

[TTTX]

The overall plot of ME was always rather stock. ME2 excels because it focus less on the overarching storyline and more on the characters and setting.

Ultimately, the apocalyptic scale of the main storyline has been one of the major undoings of Mass Effect. If it was something smaller, and that didn't end with an almost literal "setting the sets on fire" moment, things would have been much different.

true enough, but since ME2 is still part of trilogy with an overarching native, similar to the Star Wars trilogies (even the prequels had an overarching native) and Lord of the rings, ME2 have a responsibility to bring the story and characters forwards (ME2 does do that with the Squadmates if you choose to deal with their issues) and not just bring them back to where they started.

That and the writers not understanding or having the skill to really do a trilogy with such a scale.

[Raga]

*snip

The thing with this though is that every Bioware game has a middling at best plot. Plot has never been the point of their games. Every game they have made post BG2 has had the plot of A) Collect Nth pieces of something and B) use the something to reveal information about/defeat the big bad. The only exception was DA2 and that was a disjointed, didactic mess. The thing that stands out is characters and world-building and really the only instances where the world-building shown through of itself I would argue was in DAO and ME1. And even then, large, large portions of it are highly derivative. (Rachni plotline is basically just buggers plotline from Ender's Game, Qunacri are basically just Seanchan from Wheel of Time, etc.)

[Vol]

Counterpoint: Jade Empire.

The plot at first was pretty bog standard, collect Pieces of The Thing, but after the reveal, it's rather engrossing. I like it more than KOTOR, honestly, and it's a shame it was so undersold.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

ME2 was shit.

People keep praising it to the skies as the greatest thing since the orgasm but it was shit.

Daddy issues out the ass, Did fuck all to advance the plot, more corridor shooting than you can shake a space marine at. But hey at least it's got that Suicide mission right? Way to blow your load on the do nothing middle chapter. And let's go over those deep characters.

Miranda: Did I mention I'm pahfect? Also I have daddy issues plz halp
Jack: I'm legit fucked up and only PCenis can help me!
Jacob: That priiiiiize
Thane: I'm dying.v Also I'm the source of someone's daddy issues.
Grunt: I'm not as good as Wrex but I'm a Krogan and it's really hard to fuck up writing a Krogan.

Wrex's bit on Tuchanka, Mordin, Tali and Garrus, and MAYBE Legion were good.

3 of them were from the previous game.

ME was never some gift from the gaming gods on high. At it's best it was enjoyable as Bioware fare can be and had a handful of genuinely decent characters and touching moments. People that lionize the first three games ESPECIALLY ME2 need to be more honest about what it really was.

[Alienmorph]

If you put it like that, all of the ME games are shit.

The first one has a main character with the personality of a loaf of white bread, Liara's mommy issue, Garrus's teenage spaz-outs and the Talipedia. As well as a rather stock plot combined with hours and hours of sidequests that look and play the fucking same.

The third dumbs down the choices and dialogues to an extreme, makes Liara and the VS the most important characters in Shepad's life no matter what you role-played in previous games, and rushes in sub-part quests a good chunk of the side stories and characters from the previous games, when it's not straight up ignoring them. And the main plot is one giant mistake with just one or two points of brilliance. Also it reduces the gathering of resources and armies to a mere numeric counter originally meant to be an incentive to make you go multiplayer.

The Mass Effect series is not by any stretch of the imagination a series of masterpieces that was just ruined by one single fatal mistake. I don't think anyone here is pretending otherwise, just because we can also find things to enjoy.

[SciFlyBoy]

I read lots of logical issues discussed about how the series has major issues, but emotionally I think the entire series has no flaw. To me that's the point of playing these games, because we're humans capable of emotion. I never thought I'd get to care so much about a bunch of ones and zeros they way I felt when I chose to miss that sniper shot for Garrus, or how my heart skipped when I though Grunt died fighting those ravagers, or the tissue I grabbed when Mordin hummed to himself in the tower, or when I saw Tali's face last before I died. And that was all because ME2 made me care about them because of the adventure I had with them in ME1. And I think that's the best part of the ME series, the emotion they allowed me to have playing it. Everything else, those logical inconsistencies and nonsense, don't begin to wear down the wealth of feeling designed into the game play. And if that was the point that the creators were trying to trying to obtain, to give the players an exceptional emotional experience, then Bioware did the absolute best job.

I'm actually quite glad to don't logically analyse everything to bits when I'm playing something, otherwise I don't think I'd ever enjoy anything.

[TTTX]

I read lots of logical issues discussed about how the series has major issues, but emotionally I think the entire series has no flaw. To me that's the point of playing these games, because we're humans capable of emotion. I never thought I'd get to care so much about a bunch of ones and zeros they way I felt when I chose to miss that sniper shot for Garrus, or how my heart skipped when I though Grunt died fighting those ravagers, or the tissue I grabbed when Mordin hummed to himself in the tower, or when I saw Tali's face last before I died. And that was all because ME2 made me care about them because of the adventure I had with them in ME1. And I think that's the best part of the ME series, the emotion they allowed me to have playing it. Everything else, those logical inconsistencies and nonsense, don't begin to wear down the wealth of feeling designed into the game play. And if that was the point that the creators were trying to trying to obtain, to give the players an exceptional emotional experience, then Bioware did the absolute best job.

I'm actually quite glad to don't logically analyse everything to bits when I'm playing something, otherwise I don't think I'd ever enjoy anything.

well it's because of my emotions I can't really play the original trilogy anymore, hell I have tried many times, but ME3 ending have well ruined it for me (which why I have spend some time to find the reason as to why the original trilogy, starts to fall apart on itself and doom the characters into what ever ME3 ending turned into.).

I have seen better overall stories with endings fitting for characters in major series before ME3, like the Metal Gear Solid series, Legacy of Kain (it's not ended yet but the last game ended on a very hopeful note enough for me to know Kain succeed in what he set out to do a thousand years ago), Uncharted series and so on, ME trilogy doesn't end in a way that fitted the series and especially not for the characters (even with the extended ending doesn't make up for it in my opinion to what happened and how BW just handle it was just bad in my opinion.)

[Raga]

Counterpoint: Jade Empire.

The plot at first was pretty bog standard, collect Pieces of The Thing, but after the reveal, it's rather engrossing. I like it more than KOTOR, honestly, and it's a shame it was so undersold.

Inasmuch as Bioware does story well, it is almost invariably in the form of the short story rather than the novel. They even called ME2 "an anthology" a few times during development.