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FrozenShadow
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby FrozenShadow » November 9th, 2016, 10:03 am

So, Donald Trump is next president.

Well, Back to the future II had just become quite topical movie. As it's second act with this alternative year 1985 seems to be America's future now.

TTTX wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:The US just betrayed everything it fucking stands for.

He'll be impeached, but the damage has been done.

I doubt Trump will be as bad as people expect him to be.


The thing is, Trump is just tip of the iceberg here. While he can get some damage done, I fear more of people riding his coattails.

I'm sure there are some good people there. But because Trump's campaign was build on fear, hate and very obvious incitement of the masses (this whole Clinton should be in jail stuff for example), it got all kind of dangerous people on the move. There will be opportunists, fanatics, people with twisted agendas and all that, who will get in power now, especially with republican's getting all three.

Oh well, let's hope for the best and prepare for the absolute worst.

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Croatsky
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Croatsky » November 9th, 2016, 10:11 am

Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by 160,000 votes or 0,2% and that lead is growing for her.

Electoral College is a fucking joke and kills democracy.

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NCLanceman
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby NCLanceman » November 9th, 2016, 10:31 am

Croatsky wrote:Electoral College is a fucking joke and kills democracy.


That's the point.

The founding fathers were terrified of true democracy. As an object lesson in this, we can basically take a tour of Mediterranean Europe. They wanted the passions of the people to be tamped down by some system where each state mattered. Only someone who appealed to all of America, rather than certain populous regions could be President. What's good for California isn't necessarily good for Alabama, and so on. This is the same reasoning that the House of Representatives and the Senate are separated in the ways they are.

As a system to get everyone represented, it does pretty well and continues to do so.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby SciFlyBoy » November 9th, 2016, 11:00 am

Croatsky wrote:Electoral College is a fucking joke and kills democracy.

The electoral college was set up to prevent someone from buying votes in just the largest cities to secure a popular vote. This was way back in the day when there were only a handful of large cities in all 13 or so states and the fear was that some foreigner would come in, buy the presidency in Baltimore and Boston and secure the presidency so they can use the army to their whim, because more people lived in those two cities then in some entire states. (That's an exaggeration, but the concept is quite simple) Does it work today? No and I feel we should get rid of it. We also don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic, where we elect people to vote on our behalf.

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Croatsky
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Croatsky » November 9th, 2016, 11:01 am

Jihadist, including Al-Qaeda, celebrate Trump's victory. No, this is not a satire.

"Trump’s term may be the beginning of America’s fragmentation & its breakup” -Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, a veteran Al-Qaeda-linked ideologue

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DarkStorm
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby DarkStorm » November 9th, 2016, 11:04 am

People just need to calm down a bit.

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NCLanceman
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby NCLanceman » November 9th, 2016, 11:04 am

I want to talk for a moment about polling.

Political polling is terrible. It's been terrible this whole election cycle, as a brief look at Real Clear Politics can tell you, but the fascinating part is why it's terrible.

I can't claim to have a fancy degree in political science or anything -though I would like one- but what I have is actual experience on the "front lines" of polling. I was an employee for a polling outfit that did contract work for bigger polling houses during the 2010 Midterm election. Basically we did push polls for one party in one state, flipped over and did one for the opposite party in the other state.

("Let me ask you a question: Did you know that Candidate A is the greatest thing to happen to American democracy since Thomas Jefferson? And did you know that Candidate B has carnal knowledge of a horse? Now, if the election were held today, who would you vote for?" Repeat ad nausem.)

The actual mechanics of working there were simple: get two complete polls an hour, or go home. Since I had big plans to pay the light bill, I stayed on the phones and called people who had the bad luck to have been previously registered voters in an area where someone wants a poll. The problem is that no one really wants to stay on the phone for political polls. I can't tell you how many times I called someone on Sunday, only to finally have someone pick up the phone, then answers "Excuse me sir, were you aware that this is the Lord's Day?", followed by a click. A lot of people who were comfortable answering the political questions hared out when I got to basic demographics like age, color, religion and so on that accompanied every poll, and then hung up. This got so frequent, I kept a bag of dice from my D&D game on my desk and just rolled dice to just finish out the survey when they hung up.

I needed two polls an hour. I got two polls an hour.

Thankfully, unlike a lot of people at that place, I didn't just make up polls. I did the calls, I made a sincere effort. But it's hard to keep people on the line, and harder still to get people to actually answer a landline phone around dinner time. When that happened, the first question was usually "On a scale of one to ten, how likely are you to vote in the upcoming election?" The answer you're supposed to get is "Seven or above". Frequently, the only person who picked up the phone in the past hour answered "Four". I marked it down as a "Seven" and continued on.

You have not been disheartened until you have to explain to a twenty-three year old over the phone what the difference between a Democrat and a Republican is, and realizing it's the tenth time this month you've had to do it.

Statistics is a lie we tell ourselves that having some of the data is really as good as having all of the data. To make this work, you have to make assumptions. To that end, when I handed polls in, my bosses would then crunch the numbers based on the assumptions their employers made, and later on I'd see those numbers on Fox News or CNN.

The reason that polling was so bad over this election cycle is a one-two punch of bad assumptions and just the sheer unreliability of traditional random sampling polls. After that job, I know I haven't trusted a single one since.

At the risk of inflating their egos, the LA Times / Dornsife Poll was the most accurate, and did indeed predict the outcome of the election: it was a fistfight in the margin of error with Donald Trump in a slight lead. That's exactly what we got, and the more interesting part to me is how they managed it.

They just got volunteers who were willing to be asked about the election every three days to tell them how they felt about voting for the candidates and who they thought would win. Make a couple of assumptions based on voter enthusiasm and turnout, and voila. The calculation itself assumed Trump would win the popular vote, but it's colossally more accurate than traditional polling because it completely eliminates the biggest problem with traditional polls: having to talk to people who know nothing and don't care, but logging their data in with everyone else, because some poor pollster's job depends on his employer's unrealistic expectations.

With half the error eliminated, it's no small wonder that it did the best.

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Croatsky
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Croatsky » November 9th, 2016, 11:05 am

SciFlyBoy wrote:The electoral college was set up to prevent someone from buying votes in just the largest cities to secure a popular vote. This was way back in the day when there were only a handful of large cities in all 13 or so states and the fear was that some foreigner would come in, buy the presidency in Baltimore and Boston and secure the presidency so they can use the army to their whim, because more people lived in those two cities then in some entire states. (That's an exaggeration, but the concept is quite simple) Does it work today? No and I feel we should get rid of it. We also don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic, where we elect people to vote on our behalf.


Almost as if that's outdated!

Also nobody but US has Electoral College and US is not the only republic and federation in the world. You don't need it, in fact you must get rid of it!

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Riptide
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Riptide » November 9th, 2016, 11:06 am

I'm just broken up that the fucking vice president thinks I should be in a fucking reeducation camp. And I doubt Trump is far off from that.

The republicans getting the presidency, senate, house, and at least one seat on the Supreme Court does not bode well for me. So I'm all twisted out of shape.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 9th, 2016, 11:07 am

TTTX wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:The US just betrayed everything it fucking stands for.

He'll be impeached, but the damage has been done.

I doubt Trump will be as bad as people expect him to be.


He's fucking Hitler.

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Croatsky
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Croatsky » November 9th, 2016, 11:28 am

Mobius_118 wrote:He's fucking Hitler.


He's more Mussolini then Hitler.

Although, at least both of those guys didn't dodge their drafts and were decorated soldiers unlike Trump.

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TTTX
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TTTX » November 9th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:He's fucking Hitler.


ehh no he is not.

DarkStorm wrote:People just need to calm down a bit.

yes calm down and let's see what he does before you paint satan on the wall.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 9th, 2016, 12:16 pm

He already did it for us, goddamnit.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mazder » November 9th, 2016, 12:59 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:He already did it for us, goddamnit.

How about we actually wait and see if any of the policies he wants to bring through actually make it through before assuming the worst.
I mean you still have lobbyists and the mistrust from his own party to become a massive thorn in his side.

Plus let's not forget that whole First Amendment thing you guys have if he gets TOO bad.
I mean seriously, this is the time where applying it would and could be actually effective, especially when coupled with the Second.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby SciFlyBoy » November 9th, 2016, 1:37 pm

There was something I learned when I got my Masters degree in conducting. People change when they stand on that podium. I've seen talkative energetic people turn quiet and vice versa. The presidency is the same thing. Let's see what he does, he knows every eye is going to scrutinize every gesture he does. And he knows that in two years everything could change.

But let's also take an active role. When he does something good, let's congratulate him, when he does something bad let's call him out on it. That's our duty as citizens. I know I'm going to be looking and reviewing everything he says and does more intensely than any other president.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » November 9th, 2016, 1:51 pm

I'll admit I didn't think he could pull it off.

But he did. The internet's chosen candidate won.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby SciFlyBoy » November 9th, 2016, 3:59 pm

Washington Post article on 'Getting rid of the Electoral College.'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... democrats/

U.S. archives entry for the Electoral College
https://www.archives.gov/federal-regist ... about.html

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 9th, 2016, 4:34 pm

Mazder wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:He already did it for us, goddamnit.

How about we actually wait and see if any of the policies he wants to bring through actually make it through before assuming the worst.
I mean you still have lobbyists and the mistrust from his own party to become a massive thorn in his side.

Plus let's not forget that whole First Amendment thing you guys have if he gets TOO bad.
I mean seriously, this is the time where applying it would and could be actually effective, especially when coupled with the Second.


Nah I prefer to end bad shit before it gets worse.

Nip it in the bud.

He's not my president. He's a piece of shit chosen by the racist motherfuckers. The KKK was cheering him on.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby DarkStorm » November 9th, 2016, 4:39 pm


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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Riptide » November 9th, 2016, 4:41 pm

DarkStorm wrote:http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/2/donald-trump-holds-high-flag-gay-equality/


We'll see if his policies can cash the checks his mouth keeps signing.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 4:50 pm

Alienmorph wrote:Congratulations to all the white trash, bigoted assholes and racist paranoid dicks that made this possible. You can all go fuck yourself.

From today, the world is a much much darker place, all thanks to you.

Uh... you can say that all you want, but he won by far to large a number for that to be the case. Now he did win because of white people, but the only white demographic he wasn't doing well with was white college educated women.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby DarkStorm » November 9th, 2016, 4:50 pm


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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 4:55 pm

Riptide wrote:
We'll see if his policies can cash the checks his mouth keeps signing.

You do know he has gone on record as being a lot more socially progressive than he was campaigning about. Or at least socially libertarian.

Seriously, hes not going to take our bisexuality away. Thats as absurd a statement as "Hilary will take our guns away."

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TTTX
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TTTX » November 9th, 2016, 4:57 pm

double post.
Last edited by TTTX on November 9th, 2016, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TTTX » November 9th, 2016, 4:58 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:Nah I prefer to end bad shit before it gets worse.

Nip it in the bud.

He's not my president. He's a piece of shit chosen by the racist motherfuckers. The KKK was cheering him on.

funny, because there was also none white people voting for him.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 5:05 pm

TTTX wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:Nah I prefer to end bad shit before it gets worse.

Nip it in the bud.

He's not my president. He's a piece of shit chosen by the racist motherfuckers. The KKK was cheering him on.

funny, because there was also none white people voting for him.

I knew several Hispanic people voting for him.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 5:09 pm

Remember when brexit happened and everyone though the world was ending and then it didnt?

Pretty much whats going to happen here.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mazder » November 9th, 2016, 5:34 pm

TheodoricFriede wrote:Remember when brexit happened and everyone though the world was ending and then it didnt?

Pretty much whats going to happen here.

Hence my joker laugh earlier.

I got déjá vu.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TTTX » November 9th, 2016, 6:04 pm


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Someone With Mass
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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Someone With Mass » November 9th, 2016, 6:09 pm

What's worse? A hilariously corrupt politician or a delusional rich boy?

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby NCLanceman » November 9th, 2016, 7:11 pm

According to the electorate, "corrupt politician".

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 9th, 2016, 7:30 pm

Every single person who voted for Trump is a goddamn traitor.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » November 9th, 2016, 7:32 pm

You should really calm down. He doesn't even take office till January. He's not MechaHitler

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 8:02 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:Every single person who voted for Trump is a goddamn traitor.

Said the man who was going to tear up his army papers if Clinton didnt win.

Its democracy Mobius.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Alienmorph » November 9th, 2016, 8:08 pm

Alright, alright. The heat of the moment has passed, at least for me, but let me tell you something nontheless.

I do not think Trump is gonna start WWIII, or be a massive Hitler-like asshole, or any hyperbole like that... he's the President, yes, but he has still a government and a law system to deal with when he gets some bright idea about how things should be.

BUT

The guy is still a white supremacist, he has an understandment of enviromental and educational politics on par with a Captain Planet villain, he's a mysoginist, and he's gonna take care of his friends in the big industries and the lobbies before anyone and anything else.

At some point, in some manner, Trump is gonna fuck shit up. And it's gonna be horrendously memorable, painful and impossible not to look at when it happens.

The only thing we can hope is that when that happens it won't be any permanent damage, that it won't cost too many lives and that people will know better than listen to his kind of bullshit next time someone like him steps up because of it.

But on the latter one, I have my doubts. I live an hour of car driving away from where Mussolini was born, and yesterday people were shooting fireworks near my sister's house because Trump won. People never learn shit, or if they do, they forgot it faaaast.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby DarkStorm » November 9th, 2016, 8:15 pm

Sounds like you are still heated

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 8:15 pm

Personally I think it will be 4 years of embarrassment at worst, and 4 years of infrastructure building at best.

Get a bunch of projects and jobs for the people that voted for him in the rust belt.

He doesnt want to be remembered poorly. He will probably go the Huey P. Long route.

"Well he was a sack of shit, but he did build a lot of new roads!"

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Vol » November 9th, 2016, 8:32 pm

Arizona's been counted, Trump with 290 electoral to Hillary with 232. Still waiting on Michigan.

Currently there are anti-Trump rallies in several US cities, arranged by some group (according to CNN) called "Socialist Advantage." Appears to be a standard leftist dealie, signs, slogans, chanting.

Personally, I find the idea of urbanites being upset that they can't control the entire country every time thanks to their lopsided impact to be annoying, but I understand they're scared/angry about the result, so eh. Get it out of their systems, free speech and all.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby DarkStorm » November 9th, 2016, 8:39 pm

Vol wrote:Arizona's been counted, Trump with 290 electoral to Hillary with 232. Still waiting on Michigan.

Currently there are anti-Trump rallies in several US cities, arranged by some group (according to CNN) called "Socialist Advantage." Appears to be a standard leftist dealie, signs, slogans, chanting.

Personally, I find the idea of urbanites being upset that they can't control the entire country every time thanks to their lopsided impact to be annoying, but I understand they're scared/angry about the result, so eh. Get it out of their systems, free speech and all.

Mostly students throwing a fit once their rage subsides maybe they will get together with everyone else and help.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Vol » November 9th, 2016, 9:07 pm

I really hope we're not going to get a repeat of the hysterical anti-Bush crap we had for years. It overshadowed the shit worth being upset about. But the media's spent a year turning Trump into Literally Hitler, so I can understand why these city-folk are so frustrated.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 9th, 2016, 9:58 pm

Image

Pretty damned apt.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Sites32 » November 10th, 2016, 12:15 am

Folks need to ease off calling voters racists and hate mongers and all that. It comes off as disrespectful and childish. Truth be told we all have no idea how trump is going to play his hand. It can go one way or many but calling out entire groups of people with no evidence of such behavior is just as bad as the claims themselves. No disrespect to anyone here.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 10th, 2016, 12:19 am

Sites32 wrote:Folks need to ease off calling voters racists and hate mongers and all that. It comes off as disrespectful and childish. Truth be told we all have no idea how trump is going to play his hand. It can go one way or many but calling out entire groups of people with no evidence of such behavior is just as bad as the claims themselves. No disrespect to anyone here.

Also if you look at the numbers is it actually impossible that Trump won without getting some votes from people that voted for Obama.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 10th, 2016, 12:21 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:Every single person who voted for Trump is a goddamn traitor.

Said the man who was going to tear up his army papers if Clinton didnt win.

Its democracy Mobius.


It's fucking bullshit.

This fucking clown shouldn't have even been in the running with how many scandals he's in the center of.

Fuck him, and fuck everyone who voted for him. I've had to listen to 8 fucking years of "He's not MY president".

And all of you can go right to hell with him.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 10th, 2016, 12:44 am

So you gonna make a youtube video of those papers being torn up or...?

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 10th, 2016, 12:47 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:So you gonna make a youtube video of those papers being torn up or...?


I'd rather not have to, if the US Army sides with the people.

But I have a feeling he's gonna organize his own little Gestapo, so...Viva la revolution.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 10th, 2016, 12:51 am

Want to make a bet?

I have some money i need to win back.

What do you say? I will bet you 100 dollars that Trump will not have his own secret police within the first 100 days of his campaign.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 10th, 2016, 12:53 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:Want to make a bet?

I have some money i need to win back.

What do you say? I will bet you 100 dollars that Trump will not have his own secret police within the first 100 days of his campaign.


The only thing you'll ever get from me is a boot to the chest.

Not out of hate or political difference. Simply because you deserve it.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby TheodoricFriede » November 10th, 2016, 1:00 am

Someone seems a little not very confident in what he believes will happen.

Come on Mobius. Ill give you 100 to 1 odds.

You put up 10 dollars and ill put up 1000.

1000 dollars to your 10 says that Donald Trump doesnt end up becoming Adolf Hitler.

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Re: Politics - US Election 2016

Postby Mobius_118 » November 10th, 2016, 1:10 am

I don't gamble.

Not even on a sure thing. You're gonna need that 1000 for your toll to hell.


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